Ubuntu MATE 18.10 - dropping i386 images

Development Discussion
#45

No I do understand the difference. 32 bit os on 64 bit machine is very common. The common misconception is that 32 bit only runs older hardware. Using 32 bit on 64 bit machine doesn’t defeat the purpose at all.

But you need to understand the use cases. The one main reason is lack of RAM. Go to amazon and you will see 90 % the laptops that hp,dell, asus, acer sells still come with 2GB/4GB RAM. Also while testing in a vm , it is common sense to use 32 bit. I mean I so far doesn’t not have any problem running 32 bit on 64 bit machines. If you use wine you will end up using 32 bit any way.

I can give 100 more reasons but I am not trying to refute you but giving use-cases from my perspective.

And Yes older hardware will always have regression with newer kernel.16.04 kernel has issues with hardware older than 2007, 18.04 kernel has issues hardware older than 2009 and so on. But that can not be reason for dropping 32 bit. I mean if people wants to run very old hardware with newer kernel let them worry about it. But why create problems for users who has newer machines? Why drop entire arch for that?

And I do understand the difference between debian and ubuntu. I also don’t buy the “lack-of-resource” argument. How much resource do you need to download a iso and test it in a vm? That’s how everyone was doing it so far? no?

The script builds the iso. The individual packages are all tested upstream. And if build fails for a particular arch(worst case scenario) Ubuntu doesn’t fix it. They simply wait for debian to fix and the follows up. I refuse to accept that keeping the script on will burn huge amount of resources. I rather keep it even at the cost of little lack of testing.

To me it was rather forced follow up decision. "Ubuntu dropped it, budgie dropping it… so mate should follow" :expressionless:

So what now? I can’t believe I have to download Xubuntu from now on only to run sudo apt-get install ubuntu-mate-desktop later! This is plain and simple ridiculous. :astonished:

I put my argument as a real user of 32 bit os who doesn’t use old crippled machine but rather a modern one with little constraint on RAM.

#46

So why don’t make a request for a minimalist 64 bit version? But yea it is easier to be like everyone instead taking a step aside and think out of the box for a moment. If you understand the concept of minimalist os.

#47

@sunnysigara - there’s more than the amount of RAM that differentiates x86_64 from i386:

  • Using 32-bit OS in a 64-bit environment makes you more vulnerable to certain types of attacks (Spectre V2, etc).
  • The newest 32-bit computers are about a decade old, Ubuntu well support these for 5 years in this LTS (Ubuntu MATE for 3). By then, there won’t really be many 32-bit computers available.
  • To run 32-bit in a 64-bit environment, your builds will invariably disable SSE2, hurting performance, since you’re preventing the compiler from properly optimizing.
  • 64-bit is not just about the accessible memory (4GB vs a lot more). Each general purpose register is larger (32 vs 48 bits, if I recall correctly) and you have twice as many of those, so you can rely a lot less on stacking. The performance improvements are real.
  • Building and running the automated tests for image distribution requires infrastructure. If Canonical is dropping their i386 infrastructure, who’s going to foot the bill?
  • QAs and developers also require infrastructure and a lot of time. Not having to download and test daily builds in two different architectures is a godsend.
  • VMs are great, but there are differences between running 32-bit in a VM and on bare metal. Video cards, input devices, various network configurations - those are just a handful of things that can be quite different and often not even testable in a VM.

Anyway, those are just a few reasons. I’m sure I can dig and find 100 more…

6 Likes
#48

Well, my Dell notebook was made in 2006 and frankly since most of us are typing on a keyboard and not using speech to text why change anything?!

Now I’ll have to buy some overpriced gadget of a computer and God only knows if it’ll run Linux.

Regardless, I’m thankful for Ubuntu.

#49

Very true, compatibility in a VM now days is almost a slam dunk.

#50

That’s just not true. See the links below.

https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop/

https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/share-your-system-specs-super-list/4522

Personally, I find both Dell and HP to be very compatible with Linux.

#51

Also forgot raspberry pi. They are, what, $35? Add a bit more for peripherals and you have a very capable computer with probably even better specs than the most modern i386 you could find. :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like
#52

Careful. Are you saying all Debian 32 bit users are vulnerable? We have gone through this on debian-ubuntu-arch/reddit many times. I will start a new discussion. You don’t mind if I quote you?

AFAIK Spectre is not specific to 32 bit. 64 bit is as much vunerable as 32 bit. See here

Same thing were said when Ubuntu 14.04 came out that there won’t be 32 bit machine after 2018. But here we are debating on the issue. Neither you know the future nor I.

P4 has sse2. Note when I say 32 bit I am only talking about 686-class processors. Even Debian doesn’t not support older than that.

Not just cons, There are pros and cons. I specifically mentioned use-cases.[quote=“vkareh, post:47, topic:16715”]
Building and running the automated tests for image distribution requires infrastructure. If Canonical is dropping their i386 infrastructure, who’s going to foot the bill?
[/quote]

If Canonical had dropped entire architecture I would be somewhere else may be on their devel list. No?
Dropping i386 doesn’t make any sense while they still have armhf. :confused:

1 Like
#53

(By Trolleybusfreund)
Still one year ago, Ubuntu Mate was proposed as a light weight Ubuntu Flour which perfectly suits older Hardware.
So I tried 16.04 on my Tosthiba Tecra S1.
(The Tecra S1 is now 17 years old, but all components (inclusive 2GB RAM, 320 GB HDD, UXGA (1600*1200 pix) display, PAE (available by forcepae), Docking Station and so on … are still and with no problems available.)
I trying Ubuntu 16.04 on these machine, I was enthusiastic. Everything came to work perfectly, fast and with no problems. Not only the usual software, but also exotics like E-UAE (Amiga Emulation), Nokinux (contacts old Nokia cellphones), Moneyplex (special German banking software)
Same now with 18.04 !
So I did equip all of my family with those Tecra S1 machines (available for ~ 50 € each eg. on ebay) Doing so, may sister and her friend even abandoned and gave away newer 64 bit laptops (Lenovo + Asics, both Windows 10)
And now 32 bit supply ends ?? Although Mate has always been announced to be suitable for older hardware ?
NOT FAIR !

#54

I only just now found out about it since I just got back into Ubuntu MATE a few days ago, and it is quite sad to see support for 32bit machines go since I was actually just planning on reviving a still very capable desktop with it. I guess I could, as someone suggested above, run Debian on it instead, but that just doesn’t have anywhere near the user experience.
It’s also sad to see that those who run 32bit out of concern for RAM usage have been completely ignored in this thread, and that unrealistic solutions (try finding a lightweight Linux distribution that works anywhere near as good as Ubuntu MATE generally does) are being offered rather than listening to those who have a very valid reason for running the version you’re dropping support for.

I am quite excited to see support for ARM devices improving, though. What I don’t quite understand, however, is the emphasis on the Raspberry Pi 3 in this article. With the recent rise of ARM-based laptops, will there be proper support for those as well? Because those laptops offer a great promise of a basic laptop that could give you up to 20 hours of battery life. If Ubuntu MATE would work properly with those, that would definitely influence my buying decision a lot.

#55

Debian with the Mate desktop installed is quite similar to Ubuntu Mate. It may look somewhat different than UM, but you can change that quite easily. The software may be slightly older than UM 18.04 if you choose the stable branch, but it is rock solid.

I’m currently running the latest version of Raspberian, which is based on Debian Stretch, with the Mate desktop installed on my Raspberry Pi3. It works very well, and is extremely stable.

Debian and Mate would be a great combination for a ARM-based laptop in my opinion.

#56

Hallo

You might find MX Linux useful. :slight_smile:

#57

I’ve added that to my list of things to check out, thanks! From first glance it looks interesting.

#58

Lubuntu will move ahead with 32bit images, if people are willing to test it. They want testers with actual 32bit hardware.

More information here: https://lubuntu.me/this-week-in-lubuntu-development-7/

#59

First PowerPc, then i386, what next?
Raspberry Pi in a few years?:fearful:
64 bit in a few years after the Pi :disappointed_relieved:

#60

There was a time when Linux users were said to be able to buy bargain computers forced to be upgraded by new Windows versions.
Now it’s true for the great Ubuntu MATE too!
Should I be one more guy to switch to Linux Mint ???

#61

We can’t suport something we can’t test. We have a hand full of tester on ours best days and no one has a 32 bit pc for testing. Don’t forget this is a open source project and anyone can take and suport a 32 bit version of ubuntu mate. And don’t forget Mate has 3-4 devs that have jobs and a family. It’s easier to type on a keyboard about a problem and it’s harder to fix it.

3 Likes
#62

I support.
We are going to 2019 and people using x86 computers ?
also, if you blame so much the developers , do you even know how programming works ?

2 Likes
#63

Smashing my face into the keyboard and hope that works?

3 Likes
#64

As a programmer I can assure that’s exactly how it works.

3 Likes