Thoughts of a Mate NOOB

I do understand some of the points @DaltWisney has made regarding the way we install software in Ubuntu MATE. :ubuntu_mate: We have a different experience compared to other distros.

The Software Boutique "concept" aims to simplify this massive universe of Ubuntu/Debian packages by picking the best in class that covers a lot of computing needs, like a list of recommendations. :boutique: Since it's neither a software centre or package manager, it can be a problem for less tech-savvy users (let's say, coming from Windows) who tried searching for "Zoom" (the video chat app) and it doesn't seem immediately obvious where to obtain it or how to install it.

The Linux way of obtaining software resolves around repositories, so at the moment, we need to educate about the "proper" tools (e.g. Synaptic, GNOME Software) to access the rest of the catalogue (which is via the More Software tab). Currently it's just one format -- Deb packages. Terminal is great if you know what you want - though this interface is better suited for a different audience, like power users and system admins.

Maybe next year I'll restart efforts on the so-called "Software Boutique 2.0" which will function as a K.I.S.S. software centre to install software without the end user needing to worry about any technical formats (Deb, Snap, Flatpak, etc). Power users, of course, can disable package methods they won't touch with a bargepole. :straight_ruler: :package:


These competing universal formats (Snap, Flatpak) do add confusion and fragmentation. It doesn't help that Canonical (parent of Ubuntu) turned the chromium deb into a snap, but that's just politics. :unamused: (Easily heated too! :fire:)

In reality, a lot of Ubuntu derived distros (Linux Mint, elementaryOS and Zorin OS) share a vast majority of the same underlying packages - it's the out of the box experience and desktop environment that makes them unique. Snap/Flatpak are just alternate formats (with their pros and cons) as far as novices should be concerned -- it's like installing Amazon's Appstore alongside Google Play on Android.


It is interesting to read different user stories, but compromises may need to be made due to the diversity of the user base (... and I don't really know the target audience for Ubuntu MATE :man_shrugging: )

3 Likes

Wimpy's wife! :rofl:

Ref: https://ubuntu-mate.org/about/history/

4 Likes

Hey There,

So let me back up and explain something. I was using Mate all happy like, no problem. I had a desire for a few features it lacked and so I tried Zorin. Got most of those features (mainly modern GUI stuff) but learned from a (kinda blowhard) member that Snap apps in software stores kinda muck up things, because (as you accurately quoted Mint) they can't be 'controlled'.

So I didn't know which way to go on that. Was the kinda blowhard onto something or just being OCD? When I learned that a major/venerable distro (Mint) ditched Snap, that appeared to be reason for more genuine concern.

Me? Personally? I'm in your boat that most downloads on any platform can't be 100% safe because... well... this is computing after all.

So perhaps my initial theory that I was dealing with a reactionary blowhard was correct.

Hey Lah7,

Thanks for hearing me. I consider myself a solid critic and so I can be misunderstood as demanding whereas I'm just trying to be honest and direct.

So let me be very fair here to Linux installs. Let's back up and look very critically at Windows installs. Are they doing a much better job than Linux? Nope.

Windows is a ginormous corporation. It has a cheeseball software store that's lacking. To say the least. Why oh why hasn't Windows politely forced all the major players into that store? Meaning developers wouldn't be charged a nickel but simply STRONGLY encourage to either offer their software or (at least) provide a link that then opens into a browser?

If this happened MS could say, hey, only an idiot would download any app that isn't first 'cleared' through our store. If you download something outside of it, that's on you.

HANDBRAKE, for instance. It's not in that store. But why not? My way it would legitimize it to new users. If HANDBRAKE wanted traffic on their site for whatever reasons, a link would be provided in the store to their page. For free. And users would know that's the real safe link. But MS would encourage the install to be via the store so that further updates were automatic. And uninstalls simple.

So Linux is already ahead in this regard, which is amazing.

THIS is the problem. If iPhone users were advised by developers not to use the App Store... everything would grind to a halt. The App Store is the intended way to deliver most apps to normal users. If political bickering starts there... put out that fire ASAP.

Me? I'm kinda ignoring it. But that's my situation. If anything goes wrong with my one Linux install I'll just wipe and try again. But that's not optimal for someone who is using their Linux PC as their main computer. I'm just saying they want this 'snap' anxiety gone so that they can use the Boutique as intended.

I'm sorry I even brought it up, in that sense. I just felt if Mint blinked it was serious.

1 Like

Thanks for the feedback and genuine concern. If more users provided as much feedback as you have in this thread, we'd be doing more things faster and better. :smiley:

3 Likes

Uh-oh.

Zorin is not so stable. I'll be back shortly.

Thanks and let me update this thread a little.

THOUGHTS OF A MATE NOT-SO-NOOB

Firstly I'd like to apologize for introducing the entire SNAPS debate here.

It turns out the individual who introduced me to this concept was, as I suspected, a blowhard. There's been some drama at that board and the main developer had to chime in and suggest what some of you have above on this subject, mainly that snap is secure enough but nothing in computing is utterly secure. Which was my initial ignored argument against the blowhard.

It turns out the distro I was playing with kept breaking. I wasn't doing anything too daring but apparently I was. I may not love Windows 10 but it's pretty much been stable for me on 4 PCs.

So I'm back with Mate again on my Mini PC. I noticed this in Groovy Gorilla --

Screenshot at 2020-10-26 12-29-18

By THIS I mean 'About This Computer' is (now?) in an intuitive spot. If it has always been there I need new glasses. If that is new and improved -- thanks y'all.

Fun fact -- I wasn't aware that the Gorilla was ready to groove. So I installed the prior version a day before the Gorilla shaked it's groove thing.

Another fun fact -- over the years (decades?) I've never found a Linux distro stable enough to even dare upgrade in place. (I dabble with Linux every few years or so, mostly in VBox.) But here I was with a day old OS ready for an upgrade. Since I had nothing to lose I gave it a whirl.

Rock solid. As I keep saying, impressed. The Developers should take an SSDonut out of petty cash.

I do have an overall question. I don't know how to ask it because I'm still noobish. The simple version of this is if UMate ever intends to evolve in a more modern direction?

A 'modern direction' means, say, hitting the super-key and being able to search all apps. A fast way to reveal all open apps visually. And, yes, some variant of hot corners?

Let me back up. Mate offers various desktop environment flavors. And so I'm not saying these would be system wide forced options. Some peeps love that pre-Windows 10 feel and I'm not here to disappoint them.

I'm just hoping the Cupertino or Pantheon flavors (I'm using the latter) could be nudged closer to their OS counterparts. In my research of these features I've noticed that there's almost an Ubuntu wide 'issue' (distaste?) for having a way to move all windows out of the way to reveal a desktop. It's as if this feature cannot be combined with 'hot corners' for some mysterious reason.

I discovered that PLANK itself offers a partial solution. You can add a 'reveal' desktop docklet which, although not as elegant as a hot corner, definitely does the job. And this gives me an idea.

Before I share that idea -- it's kinda regressive that the Plank preferences is an 'app' itself which can't be removed from Plank. I'm not exactly sure how open source works but it my understanding that Mate Developers could take Plank, change Plank, and present is Mate Dock/Shelf/Whatever. If that's a YES I hope this wouldn't be too burdensome a suggestion.

Create your own Plank variant featuring your own logo. That logo would be the plank 'button'.. You can either click it or press the Super Key. (What I know as the Windows button.)

When you activate it --

  1. You see all open windows in preview mode. (If animation is too taxing to the system, no animation. Pop In, Pop Out.)
  2. One of the previewed windows is Caja, defaulted to desktop. (Default could be changed in a preference.)
  3. A field users can type in and search apps and settings. (Like in other distros.)
  4. Perhaps a Weather Widget (that works!) and the Mate Sys Monitor. (Both optional, kinda borrowing from Win10 Start Menu.)

I'm unaware if Mate cannot 'shrink' a window down to a smaller version of itself. If that is the case now I know why this feature isn't offered here. But I do see teeny tiny previews in Alt-Tab and so it feels very possible.

Understand I'm seeking a distro I can recommend as stable, fast, and Mac friendly alternative to people who want that dock but also would prefer to spend $500-$800 on a fast 15.3 inch laptop instead of being forced to start at $2400 for a MacBook with a screen larger than 13 inches. And have a rock solid OS that is more reliable than Windows 10.

To me that is the area Linux can exploit.

1 Like

Hi @DaltWisney!

Try this command in terminal to hide plank 'anchor' item (or navigate to this setting manually via dconf-editor):
gsettings set net.launchpad.plank.dock.settings:/net/launchpad/plank/docks/dock1/ show-dock-item false
After hiding anchor item you are still able to access plank context menu using ctrl-click.

Have you also checked 'show desktop' panel applet? Some layouts have it preinstalled.

Hope this helps.

much of what you want is implementable and some has been available in previous times through third party add-ons currently however from what I see developer time is quite used up with simply keeping up with underlying technologies and occasionally adding features as they get time

Next to anything is implementable on Linux (with sometimes risky results) but if a distro is going to offer a 'Cupertino' and 'Pantheon' it would be optimal to have some answer to 'Hot Corners' working and reliable.

1 Like

I found a project that might be able to provide hotcorners functionality that I may be able to get working for MATE, however that being said I can't give you a timeline as I have no idea of when I'll be able to get to it

1 Like

I wasn't aware you were a developer. I'm just throwing the idea out. If and when it can happen is a different issue. It would complete the iThemes if possible.

I'm not a true developer in the sense that I don't do it for a living or even have formal training, I just mess with various Linux related things which are written in Python, I have found a hotcorners program written in Python that with some updating and writing a graphical interface for it, should work until we switch to wayland in the distant future and then hopefully it can be made to work then as well.

P.S. I'm not one of the developers I was referring to, I just follow a lot of their work on github and know they're pretty busy

Also most of what you want is available by installing compiz and the compiz settings manager however that also gives you a lot of other options and can be a bit messy

I've gotten the impression from others that Compiz is a strain on weaker PCs and not so stable. Is this an accurate impression?

By the way I have the impression Ubuntu basically has this functionality. (I may say the following incorrectly because Linux and all these distros is like learning a new language, but -- ) in Ubuntu you hit the super-key, it reveals all open windows, and a search field for apps and preferences.

Can't developers just plug that into a Pantheon theme? I know I'm making it sound easy but I thought Open Source means developers can take that work and 'import' it into Mate? Or is there something about Mate that isn't 'ready' for that yet?

All I'd add in that scenario is that one of the things you're offered in that mode is desktop. So SUPER would bring you to all open windows or switch you to the desktop if need be.

forking that functionality from gnome, the desktop standard ubuntu uses would require an insane amount of work, it would be easier to use something distro agnostic or perhaps even build on from the ground up, that being said MATE could have that functionality it just needs to be implemented, something you could look at would be the xf dashboard it may be possible to use it in MATE, I have made it work before but it's been a while

Thanks for replies. There are areas I don't get. But I had a hunch that fork would be brutal, which is why my original suggestion was sneaking it into a Plank docklet. lol

1 Like

I regrettably have to bail Linux. Although Mate is the most stable distro I've found -- I still find Linux too unstable to use. I was THIS close but I just find Windows 10 works better, all things considered. Yeah, spyware, but everything is spying on us.

You MATE types are some really nice people. I wish you well.

Take care.