Two cents from @tiox

Continuing conversation from Why switching from VLC to gnome MPV is a bad idea

My two cents about what I think of your statement

GNOME team thought the same way you did. Then they made GNOME-Shell and ■■■■■■ everyone off.

There was no alternative to GNOME 2.18, so the MATE project was born to preserve the original intentions of the GNOME 2 project.

Now you can make GNOME-Shell look and feel like Windows Vista (vaguely) using Dash to Panel and Arc Menu as extensions to the environment.

I think there's a pattern here...

But no seriously. That sentence is as full of nonsense as people saying that Linux shouldn't represent a competing desktop environment at all. The reason why GNOME 2 was successful in the first place isn't just because it was the most popular environment of its time, but because Microsoft set the standard and if you want people to change their minds, sometimes things have to stay the same.

And most often, as Ralph pointed out it also has to be easy for someone to make the system how they want without too much tooling around. As much as I love love love the centralized update system Debian has compared to Microsoft Windows Update and the Microsoft Store, the thesis of the zeitgeist which doesn't want to use Linux is that Linux is hard. There's no harm, in my opinion of making Linux feel more like Windows, or even another system for users of BeOS and MacOS. I also think there is no harm in meeting their needs, which is what Linux systems had been doing for the past decade.

And Linux has been better for it.

Just saying.

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I did not make my meaning clear enough obviously.

I quit Ubuntu over Unity to use MATE not because it is like Windows but because it is not Unity. I don't know enough about MATE's motivation to say for sure, but I'm fairly sure that it was not inspired by a desire to make something that looks like Windows!

My first objection is to the argument that an application is inferior because it doesn't have the GUI interface that Windows users expect.

My second objection is to the current of competitive drive that wants to 'win' users from Windows. I don't need my operating system or desktop to be the most popular in the world. I really really don't . And I don't need or even want my system to be clickety-click black box 'easy'.

I like to tinker. I like the straightforward simplicity and efficiency of text configuration. I find it frustrating when the only way to configure a system is to click through pages and pages of a configuration 'wizard' or a dialog with numerous tabs with ambiguous labels.

If people want Windows then let's leave them to it. If people want Unity or Gnome n++ -- or whatever! -- then let's leave them to it. If people don't like systemd the Linux community offers alternatives.

Let's keep it that way instead of trying to 'win' the world into some horrible compromise at the LCD.

The primary aim of the Ubuntu MATE desktop is to provide a "familiar" desktop with the goal being to preserve the "Traditional" desktop experience, while integrating much of today's technology without falling into the same tropes that made Unity and GNOME Shell less desirable for end users. Whether familiar entails Mac, Linux or some other OS is entirely up to a user's previous experience, and the panel layout options in mate-tweak are intended to emulate — to some degree — existing desktops so familiarity can be improved by mimicking another desktop's workflow.

The desktop provided by users when they first sign into their account harks back to the old days of Ubuntu 5.xx before it was even ratified to have six-month update cycles; the time when Ubuntu was fresh and new to so many, using what other avid linux users had on their screens before Ubuntu was even a thing. They used Debian as a base, made software to go with that and claimed it was Linux for Human Beings. (Before they dropped that slogan.)

Making Ubuntu to please Windows users isn't exactly what Canonical was doing back in the day, but projects to make Ubuntu easier for Windows users like Linux Mint came into the fore. Then it went beyond making GNOME 2 easier for users of Windows; it was full of docks and desktop alternatives that Windows users just hopping onto Ubuntu tried to grow into per writings from omg! ubuntu! and Webupd8. Discussions full of colour with a rainbow of variety which would eventually spawn the software we have today... for better, or worse.

That's where i have to tell you stop right there. Being the most popular, and being "[B]lack box [easy]" is why you have the breadth of software for Ubuntu, at all. As much fondness as I have for the terminal, as cool as it is to have a custom shell, as awesome as it is to play with text files in nano or vim and watch what happens, at the end of the day I just want to install something and have it work with maybe ticking a few things on or off. It's something you'll grow to know when you get older and have a life where you can't just sit on ass with a cup of coffee and make a day of debugging what's not right without a GUI.

And hey! Maybe you don't ever have a life where you're forced to not play so much with your computer. Maybe you can spend the better part of your life tooling with text files and making cool stuff cooler by typing a line of code here or there. But Ubuntu did not get to where it is today by making things difficult. And similar projects follow the same vain, such as Manjaro for people who want to play with Arch Linux, and Korora for Fedora (even though admittedly, base Fedora is pretty damn easy to begin with).

Arguably, Linux isn't where it is today by making things easy either, but easy didn't exist then. The reason Linux is where it is today is because of dedicated people who laid the roadwork. Now the roads are built, everybody else can drive upon it and make their way to wherever, and whatever faster. Not everybody can forge their own path, and most people aren't willing to make Slackware or Gentoo work. Sure it's fun to try a more hardcore, bare-bones Linux, but going off-road and doing your own thing is only fun for so long. Eventually most people just want smooth roads to traverse upon.

And... that's cool too! Everything is cool! But your candor makes it seem like you're implying that everybody else should be doing things your way. Poking fun at ideas without presenting some perspective to support the contrary beyond That's how I want it makes you seem like an elitist. And that's not a good look for anyone.

There is no winning in a world that had already been won. Simply degrees of losing for people following the leader, and an exchange of power over time.

@lah7 probably a topic split is ideal at this point, but i simply couldn't let that comment go without an impassioned response.

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I like to tinker also and I have several distros that allow me to do that. I'm fortunate to have several (somewhat older) machines that I won at auction with identical hardware so I can (and do) break the OS that I tinker with.
However - I want one machine that "just works" EVERY time and that machine has plain vanilla UM 18.04LTS. I don't mess with it (any longer) unless the software package is in the software boutique.
MATE is a continuation of the older simple Gnome 2 desktop and Gnome MPV makes a nice fit. VLC has always been problematic for me and provides more features than I currently need. Fun stuff is my Raspberry Pi and distro hopping with the other machines. YMMV.

Oh dear you not only miss the point of my post, you have formed a ridiculously false impression of my person. Though I can see why you might reasonably mistake my point, I have much less sympathy for your mistaken impression of my person.

Given the difficulty of making accurate personal assessments from a few lines of text, I'll hold off from making assumptions about you. Although you provide much much more than a few lines of evidence, I don't see how adding further personal attack will benefit our discussion.

As I move into my eighth decade, I have mixed feelings about your suggestion that my preference is evidence of an excess of youth. Am I insulted or am I flattered? But here's the thing: it doesn't matter how I feel because the point you make is really irrelevant isn't it? One hand points to ' the mouth of babes' and the other to 'the wisdom of age'.

The first misinterpretation comes through the suggestion that I am saying that text interfaces are superior to GUI interfaces and that everyone should be using text interfaces. I am not saying that and I don't believe that. I am objecting to the statement that the lack of a GUI configuration makes an application inferior and that it is inferior because it frightens off Windows users.

Again: I am objecting to:

  1. the statement that the lack of a GUI configuration makes an application inferior and
  2. that it is inferior because it frightens off Windows users.

And as long as the MATE developers continue giving the care and attention to maintain this great distro then I don't give a hoot how many Windows users are converted to it.

I am very happy with MATE. I don't want the GUI bits to go away. I like the change to mpv. It doesn't have a GUI configuration tool right now but so what. Someone will write one. There are people who take great pleasure in writing GUI applications and people who take great pleasure in using them and to me that is a beautiful thing. I like that mpv has a text configuration because I prefer having all the configuration in one place rather than hiding behind poorly labelled tabs of configuration elements that are often arbitrarily categorized and sometimes categorized out of sheer desperation. What exactly does "Advanced" mean anyway?

I think that's enough. I've said - what three times now? - what I mean to say and find what I say to be misunderstood, misrepresented, and myself personally insulted. That disappoints me and is the first thing I've found to not like about Ubuntu MATE.

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Yeah, sorry about that @lah7. Looking back, I was not seeing the context of the initial post which made me go off like a firecracker. I spun it way out of context, and bled my heart out in those responses. I didn't understand if what Stephan was on about is sarcasm or a serious suggestion that MATE developers accommodating Windows users is a compromise to the intentions of MATE and this very beautiful distribution of Ubuntu which I am pleased to say I am a (probably) respectable member of this community.

Looking back, it seems like he was being sarcastic as his last response in the split post seems contrary to the response I was going on about. About his age, now knowing he's eighty years old it is pleasant to see such generational diversity in the Linux userland et al and I apologize for any offense I casted toward @stephenboston. They were all off-the-cuff, disorderly responses under the assumption of his age based upon the subjective maturity of the initial post, which coloured quite heavily my attitude toward him.

What I won't take back: his objection to making the OS stupid-simple. It is still the core reason many Windows users flock to Ubuntu at all and the reason why I will still advocate for any desktop using MATE, with this one in particular because of its ease facilitating increased user retention post-conversion from Windows or with dual-boot use. If there's a hill to die on, it's that one. I just don't want the desktop to be so absurdly simple that I cannot be allowed even icons on the desktop, which is what GNOME Shell is doing, and what I believe Stephan was also objecting to.

I am sure there is deliberation on what to do with me. Don't hold back; I'll accept whatever punishment is deemed appropriate for my actions. I'll still love you all and understand any further action taken against me so long it is reasonable and fairly administered with precedent.

:green_heart:

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I don't intend to punish, but please do take care in future to keep topics on track to the original discussion and not derail them in this manner.

You could message a member personally (if they have messages enabled) to clarify posts before using "Reply as linked topic" to discuss a different idea. This would prevent other topics becoming philosophy debates, especially based on a misinterpretation of one sentence.

E.g. start a new topic with a poll if you'd like to know the thoughts with the community: "Can MATE be attractive/simpler for Windows users?" :bulb: Stephen's words would be inspiration instead which will encourage discussion. Looking at the number of :heart:'s your posts received, it seems people have an interest in this area.

As our guidelines say:

You may wish to respond to something by disagreeing with it. That’s fine. But, remember to criticize ideas, not people.

And "keep it tidy". Collectively, we should really have flagged the first "two cents" post as off-topic and/or shifted it into a private discussion sooner to prevent public humiliation.


As for now, I'd like us to conclude this spin-off. I did message @stephenboston about the topic split. I also suggested turning this into a private discussion or just disposing it. Right now, it is unlisted at the moment. :clear:

That is fair. Thanks for understanding. Guess after a week of working on the same post draft I kind of lost my marbles and decided it was a really good idea to full send on something I didn't understand the context of.

Hopefully we can find a way to raise Stephan's spirits after that little debacle.

Edit: Somehow I lost that draft. So I lost a week's worth of banging away at the keyboard over this. Guess that's punishment enough.

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