Choices, "Greeting software" and perspectives of a general user

##Introduction
This post is mostly inspired by @veggrower who has some remarkably strong opinions and concerns about software bloat I figured I would address, share some thoughtful takes about the subject and move that kind of discourse elsewhere so we can better focus discussions which already exist.

I am going to break this article down into things which was said in one of veg’s posts, which will explain in depth what I think about the subjects presented. This isn’t about me wanting to drag him through the mud and make him look bad; there are legitimate concerns about the subjects presented, and I will attempt to present views as somebody fairly knowledgeable about Linux, addressing people who may not be as well versed to know what they may have in their pocket might be a Linux system like Android or Tizen.

##The burden of choice

###Choosing v. Chosen

Unfortunately, in the Linux ecosystem there is already too many choices of systems. There are hundreds of thousands of choices for distributions, each of them using their bootloaders, shells, desktop managers, desktop environments, compositors, related configurations &c. Ubuntu MATE is one of those nearly-endless choices, inspired by a need to maintain the “Old standards” Canonical set forth with Ubuntu.

To understand why Ubuntu MATE exists is to understand what happened between 2011 and 2012, where GNOME team decided to discontinue their efforts to focus on GNOME 2, and eventually deprecate it from their development cycle in favour for GTK3 and GNOME-Shell in a bid to make an interface any system can use which would be more suited for tablets, phones and other portable devices. Since the Ubuntu team at the time didn’t want to use GNOME-Shell and wanted their own convergence play, Unity was developed which relies exclusively on Compiz 0.9.

Here, we already see a troubling issue; One team decided they would discontinue a work everyone knew and loved for their own ambitions and nearly overnight tore asunder the Ubuntu userbase with their polarizing decision to pursue tablets, while Canonical did the same their own way. For anyone familiar with Ubuntu pre-Unity, the end was nigh for their beloved desktop with changes which would force users into a new workflow they might not enjoy. In this scenario, users already made their choice and had a new choice foisted upon them which some never saw coming.

###Wanting the past
Later, Microsoft would make a similar decision of interface design with Windows 8 which not only created camps of users who would rather stick with Windows 7 but also continue to not sway users away from Windows XP. issues of interface changes in both the open-source and commercial fields yielded long-standing security issues where people don’t want to change and would rather remain behind, forgoing “Common sense” and security improvements for something they know and love.

For people who are more flexible and fluid with what interface their system uses, a lot of ex-GNOME 2 users’ exodus to different desktops like LXDE, XFCE and custom solutions never quite fit like the desktop they know and love having; 1) the majority of users come from Windows or Mac, 2) wanted something which was theirs and 3) believed to never change thereafter. The problem with this is once a user makes up their mind on what they want, they don’t want their minds made up for them but the unfortunate truth is no matter which you stick with change will come and it will suck.

##Too much stuff

[quote=“veggrower, post:10, topic:14367”]
The menus are cluttered with stuff. Get rid of it. There are endless and seemingly overlapping configuration menu entries. Get rid of what you can (mate-tweak). [sic][/quote]

###A problematic legacy
This, as well the “Complications” mentioned previously is a side-effect of GNOME 2 and old styles of menu sorting. Every desktop encounters this to some degree; the worst offender of these being Microsoft Windows and how programs of yore would always populate the Start menu with no option to avoid it. This has become better with time as programs offer choices to add both the start menu entries and desktop icons, but you can’t fix the past, and the past was more rigid with how a software installer performed.

However this is also similar behaviour in most open-source environments which add launchers to menus, but rarely does software add new categories, instead new software launchers are inserted into defined categories and allow other menu programs to sort the software as a user wishes.

###Guidance to solutions
Software like mate-tweak and ubuntu-mate-welcome, Manjaro’s manjaro-hello, Ubuntu’s Unity keyboard shortcut guide and such exist to do things for the user in the least number of steps possible, without needing to memorize a lot of stuff. Somebody fresh from Windows may not know any help exists, and most greeting software sets out to guide absolute newbies through a system to improve their understanding of basic components, establish where they can find assistance elsewhere and help engage with a community of more knowledgeable users. Where more experienced users see bloat, other users see salvation, especially when the software meant to greet and guide also performs what the zeitgeist in our userlands consider “The basics”.

##Look-alikes

[quote=“veggrower, post:10, topic:14367”]
Ubuntu-mate doesn’t have to imitate every os in the world. It should be comfortable and confident in its own skin. That is why I hate the new wallpaper. It clearly is a knock off of the mac os x wallpaper. [sic][/quote]

###Where I agree
Users should be allowed to find their own style. To define the look of their system means to make it theirs, down to function and appearance. However many don’t bother to do this and instead of personalizing their experience, they see it as a tool where looks don’t matter, so long it works. For those people, a sound, solid default is necessary.

Where I don’t agree

Users who want to personalize their systems will most likely had used a computer before and want to emulate their workflow on another system. For some that even means making it look like something else, and having it function like something else. For those people imitation isn’t just a sincere form of flattery, it is also necessary for them to function with their system, so they can use it to the best of their ability (within limitations imposed by the DE).

###Knockoffs
Regarding the wallpaper being an OS X-alike, people have been doing that kind of stuff for ages. People go as far as create shell scripts for present versions of systems (when they were written) to make their system look like Windows, Mac or anywhere in between. And it will still continue because people want to create familiar interfaces for people to use so they a) don’t think they are using something else (initially) or b) would be more inclined to use something different if it looks the same (despite how foolish that mentality is, it may be a good ice-breaker.)

##Users are stupid

[quote=“veggrower, post:10, topic:14367”]
Welcome is essentially a browser based on webkit. UM already has a browser -Firefox. All that is needed is a link on the desktop or whatever to any online instructions. Simple. [sic][/quote]
In comparison to having a bunch of desktop items that may never be read, or worse removed from the filesystem and believing that otherwise-capable users don’t know where to begin, having an application like ubuntu-mate-welcome is beneficial for users to become acclimated with their system and perform the first steps necessary for an optimal use experience. As somebody else mentioned, the first hours matter; for some the first impression they have of the system really matters, and no matter how they work with it thereafter they’ll remember how their first few hours sucked if their experience is less-than-stellar.

Welcome is not meant to be an end-all guide for the user but rather present options complete newbies may be unfamiliar with, and provide resources where they can continue to find things out online. Not everyone is of equal capability, even if they have the appendages and brains to use them like other people do; software provided to assist the slow and “Dumb” through initial setup and software installation is beneficial to have, even better than .desktop files since they cannot delete it without learning how to use apt or understanding the structure of the root filesystem.

##Anything else?
Feel free to confirm or rebut whatever is above. We’re here to talk, not cast blame and jab fingers into one another.

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Before my closing remarks are compared with the above to accuse me of being holier than thou and calling myself not stupid, guess what; I’m a user too! By virtue I am dumb also!

Hallo

A
Define what Ubuntu-Mate is supposed to be - you can’t be all things to all people (users). I believe Mr. Wimpress has already done this.

B
As far as technical restrictions allow, follow the target set out in “A”.

C
I’m running out of relevant things to add…

Thank you for your thoughtful and well written arguments. I think one thing that Ubuntu-mate gets right is to keep alive a beloved and very well put together desktop system. I was a Gnome 2 user back then and had been for awhile. It was just to me (and still is) the best working desktop around, I so glad we still have that choice in mate and it’s development has been carried on.

I for one do not need my desktop to work on my phone and on my tablet too. I’m happy to use different D.E.'s for the task at hand. and from my opinion Mate is the best tool for the task on my Desktop machines. Ubuntu-Mate fills that nicely.

I believe any new user who has used windows up through win 7, could find it quite easy to transition
to a mate desktop machine, and in fact have witnessed this in several people who I’ve install a mate desktop for and the learning curved though great, has been learned in a matter of hours (not days) enough so they can get their work accomplished. The biggest battle for most of them has been working with M.S. Office type programs. and learning new ways to do that work. Not really with the Operating system itself. By the way M.S. Office computability is becoming better in Linux all the time. Most of the people I’ve seen switch to Linux - (Ubuntu-mate in particular) are not really deeply involved in the computer stuff, they just want a system that does not break and allows them to get their computing done with out the trouble of having it break on them all the time. They tend to be those that do not want to upgrade all the time.

I’m not nor do I really know many gamers - I understand their requirements are much different from the one who just wants a system to do day to day stuff. Like write caculate and print or browse and e-mail. But most users are not techie types today. They are ordinary people doing ordinary things with their computers. Most don’t need flashy desktops. but ones that are simple to use and that they with minimal fuss can be tailored to their needs. Of all the systems that fulfill that need I find Ubuntu-Mate a good choice. My second choice is Mint-mate and then PCLinuxOS-mate – Your right I like Mate :slight_smile:

One nice addition that many regular users have expressed to me and should be considered for addition to the mate Desktop would be an automatic wallpaper switcher in the default install.
I know it seems like a silly thing, but people who use their computers 6 to 8 hours a day like to see some change during the day. For those people I often install variety wallpaper Changer and it works quite well for them. Maybe it could be included as a default.

In any event Ubuntu-Mates team is doing a great job of giving us this choice and I thank them for It.
Hope I’ve been a voice for ordinary user out there. And not a point of contention. One grip I’ve heard over and over again hasn’t been about too much choice or bloat, But that the but that the Linux system seems to be only responsive to the techie types. I think that less true today than it was 10 years ago and that reflects the changing linux user base.
Keep up the good work :slight_smile:

3 Likes

A couple other Items that may be of interest to the Dev’s in going forward.
The most asked for additions to Ubuntu-Mate that I encounter among those I’ve transitioned to Linux-mate DE.

  1. add Chrome /not chromium as default Browser – They simply don’t care for FF anymore. (I personally like Opera stable)

  2. Add Evolution for office communications instead of Thunderbird e-mail client (most of them are used to outlook)

  3. Wallpaper Changer

  4. gimp or better yet some type of Photoshop equivalent (haven’t really found one yet)

  5. Playonlinux installed for wine programs (they don’t play games but find it easier to use wine this way and get the few windows programs running they want.

those are the top five items I’m asked to install for them.

Hallo

I do not believe that “Wine” and “Playonlinux” should be installed by default. As far as I’m aware they reduce the security of a GNU/Linux system. If that really is the case (could a wise person confirm this please?), they should not be installed by default. By all means have them in the Boutique (with a security warning if appropriate).

I’m not saying they should be installed by default, just that people ask for ways to continue to use certain window programs in Linux. It’s one of the top 5 request I get when transitioning people from other operating systems. If you run Virtual box - which is too complicated for many users in it’s present state you are open to all windows vulnerabilities and security flaws as well. Much the same hold true with wine and playonlinux also. the one thing that play on linux does do is it pretty much isolates the programs to their own virtual folders. You just have to know the dangers and weigh that against what you need to do. :slight_smile:

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Sooo basically you are saying that most users don’t give a damn about Mozilla’s products anymore, and should use something else. Neat! users can (and should) do that themselves. I would go so far as to say exclude the browser and E-Mail client so the welcome screen can be purposed to install a selection of internet-related tools.

As for the remainder of your inquiries;

  • Chrome is Google’s thing; we’re limited to Chromium (but it’s about as good for general browsing)
  • Agreed; users shouldn’t have to;
  • Install Nemo for that functionality (which breaks Compiz 0.8)
  • Use Compiz’s wallpaper plugin, which caja isn’t patched like Nautilus Elementary could be to show desktop icons on top
  • Gimp should remain optional since not everyone tinkers with images at the professional level. Or users can add otto06217’s PPA for Gimp dev build to get the latest stuff now
  • POL is in the software boutique, least for Artful. Not sure about Zesty. If anyone wants the latest Wine ricotz’s PPA has the latest unstable.

Oh so true, over the 8 years i have been using Linux it has become much easier to use for the average daily user, much more user friendly with GUI for updates and software, less dependant of techie command line.

With the welcome menu, transitioning from windows7 was very easy. I installed 16.04 LTS Mate over a year ago and use it almost daily. I used mainly on an old laptop, but when cooling fan went I installed it on desktop in duel boot with Ubuntu Studio16.04 LTS.

As far as what should and should not be included in the disto default install i prefer the Elementary OS approach of more is less, i prefer being the one to choose what is on my machine. Having only added “Caja Dropbox” to the distro Mate provided, it is a happy medium between my bare (Elementary OS) and loaded up (Ubuntu Studio) OS.

I do agree with alpinejohn leave “Wine” , “Playonlinux” and add “VirualBox” off and let the user install if need be. No worries over FF tiox, it works for me and am sure lots of others as well, lots better than the default Midori browser that ElementaryOS came with.

This is also something that can be presented to users during setup or at the initial login setup. Which browser do you prefer? With an option of the three(or more), and the OS can set it up for them.

I use FF on everything. Chrome may be the most popular browser and I certainly understand the appeal, but for me it is a behemoth user of resources and very invasive.

I think bundling proprietary software, especially one as vital as the web browser with the default install image is dangerous.

Ultimately providing options to users during or freshly from an install would be the most ideal way in my opinion of removing the issue of default applications. Its a win for everyone.

So uh, hey, @veggrower you have nothing to contribute? I would had expected you to come swooping in with counter-points we can discuss about.

Remember, you’re always free to respond with confirmation or denial of anything in my OP, or discuss new issues. I’ve never been in this community to ruin people or shut down discussion.

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