Thoughts on Ubuntu Mate from a new user - why I think it is better than others

First of all hello Ubuntu Mate community, I'm new to Ubuntu, but I have used Mint Mate for a few years before the 24.04 release dropped.

I must say - Ubuntu Mate really does a splendid job at keeping things "just work" out of the box and when a hick-up happens - the solution is two clicks on a forum away - it really is that easy for a moderate user

I have used Mate desktop on my laptop for four years now and this newest version is the best I have ever used hands down. So it made me think - why do I find this desktop so eye-catching and easy to use? Why do I feel most at home when using Mate, and not for example Cinnamon, Gnome or Windows 10/11 ? Well my thought is that it is because I grew up on Win 98/XP/Vista and while it isn't as similar as new Mate it has a distinct "Desktop" feeling that makes it distinct from "Mobile Phone" feel some new Desktop Environments give to me.

The Mate experience coupled with Ubuntu stability in my user case made it perfect since I am old enough I appreciate "early 2000s" aesthetic of a Mate base since (in my humble opinion) it is easiest and most transparent Desktop layout to use on a screen larger than a phone but smaller than TV.

I am not a user that is focused on fidgeting with OS or desktop - I just want it to be a tool that I can use to make my primary work easier to manage and it does just that! So thank you developers of this perfect Ubuntu flavour and thank you Ubuntu Mate community for providing enough information to help it run as fine as it does. :blush:

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Hi, @Alarik and welcome to the Ubuntu MATE Community!

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I totally agree with what has been said.
But it is more, I would add the performance and resource consumption.
MATE is very light and efficient in resource consumption.
Although there are more lightweight desktops than MATE, for my taste they fall short in terms of functionality.
I started with Ubuntu in version 7.04 that included this desktop, at that time it was not called MATE, it was called gtk2 or Gnome 2. One of the reasons why I abandoned Ubuntu was precisely the change from Gnome2 to Unity.
Now I am again unhappy with Ubuntu because of the imposing philosophy it is taking in some aspects. I am not worried about getting rid of Ubuntu, but I am clear that I am not going to sacrifice the .deb package system at first and the other is the MATE desktop.
What is a shame is that from what I have tried. Although as a distribution with Ubuntu the MATE desktop is very nice to look at and works very well.
When I have installed it on other distros, it leaves a lot to be desired.
The ability to work and be attractive on other distros is something that it lacks.
It is not that it does not work, or that it works badly, but visually it falls short.
Or at least that is my opinion.

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Of course, usability of this Ubuntu + Mate combination is one of the main selling points, and since you mentioned light weight it has - that was my main reason for switching from Mint Mate since Mint got bigger over the years, when I was getting into linux size of root partition was recommended at 20GB now recommended one is 100GB for mint, and for Ubuntu Mate is 16GB not the minimal requirement.

I must say, the looks are better on Ubuntu than they were on Mint (but I didn't use latest versions so I don't know if it got changed for the better)
One more thing that I really like is how the top desktop bar has much needed options for little programs and I really need the one to see if my caps/num lock is on or off since my laptop keyboard does not have lighting so there isn't any way I can easily tell if I left it on or off until I start typing and need to redo first word. I bought my laptop after I finished first year of college with the little money I saved working over summer so I mostly used it and still am using for writing papers and it really bothered me how odd looking it was on Mint version.

I personally am not really invested nor do I know enough about the topic to know what my stance about where Ubuntu is headed is. I don't mind snaps and I haven't had much experience with the main line to know what was made to estrange a lot of the community but I do see in recent few years a lot more harsh words being used when discussing Ubuntu/Canonical. I do know I love Mate and gnome2 from whence it came :yum:

All in all I'm primarily in it for Mate since it gives me the most I need and is not overly heavy on my lower end laptop nor it looks barren like other lighter ended desktops. But I do love debian-based distros since I learned all necessary terminal phrases and would be happy if I don't have to change the base for other options. And last but the most important - the community is sooo awesome and wholesome and most of all helpful - I am at lack of words for how much I adore this aspect!

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It's not just the disk space required. That's why I consider it light. I'm more concerned about the memory consumption, the number of processes at startup and the processor consumption.

I have installed Ubuntu MATE 22.04 LTS on computers with a memory consumption of less than 400MB. That makes it possible to install it on more recent computers but with few resources. As on older computers. With a very decent performance. I have had Ubuntu MATE 22.04 LTS on computers that are 19 years old.

Unfortunately, it has been getting worse lately and 24.04 already requires many more resources and I have not been able to install it.

The problem with Ubuntu/Canonical is the philosophy that it is taking. That of making the system heavier and heavier, losing compatibility with modest or older computers.
The fact that Snap exists, doesn't seem bad to me, as an option. But the fact that it is imposed is what I don't like. Snap doubles the storage space. It has good things, but I don't like things being imposed on me. As an option, good, as an obligation, bad.
On the other hand, I understand the policy of editions as the fact that LTS have to be older than continuous editions, have fewer new features and thus be more robust and tested. But that is something that has changed lately. Or I notice that it has changed. Ubuntu has so many poorly tested new features lately that it creates many problems, one of the main ones being the lack of documentation. As much as I have searched, there is no standard for how it works and what is part of Systemd. In some distros it is one way, in others it is another, within a distro in some versions it is one way and in others it is another. I come back to the same thing, I am not criticizing Systemd, I am criticizing that it is not explained how it works and that Canonical imposes it on me. The same thing happens with Wayland, which must be wonderful, but the fact is that it still gives problems and I cannot find out how it works. And above all it is imposed.
If all this made the system lighter or worked better or was easier to understand or configure or had better documentation on how it works, I would understand it, but that is not the case.
If I abandoned Windows it is because it was opaque, because I could not see the guts or modify them without breaking it to a non-expert level. Ubuntu is becoming Windows. And for that I stay with the original. Or better yet, I flee Ubuntu and look for another alternative.
Configuration through graphical applications is a good option, but there must also be plain text configuration files. Not in opaque binaries or executables.

But all this is just my opinion.
I already left Ubuntu when they imposed Unity on me as a desktop with all the problems that caused. Ubuntu rectified because it began to lose mass of users. It seems that Canonical only learns the hard way. I will have to look for something else until they rectify. If they want.

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I used Mint Mate on my main laptop the last 3 years. The Mint forum can't even start to compete with the Ubuntu Mate forum. I am back to Ubuntu Mate on my main laptop. The Mint forum has pages and pages of unanswered questions. The people have nowhere near the knowledge of some here. While not as arrogant as Debian it is nowhere as newbie friendly as here. That alone makes Ubuntu Mate superior to me.

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Yeah, memory consumption is excellent point, I tend to forget about it since I have decent enough space and 8GB RAM so I could run a bit heavier options but why when I can run something that can not drain my system and in turn my battery so much and still be silky and smooth like Mate is.

Hmm from the points you've pointed out and from the stuff I recall reading online I do agree it is not the best practice to push snap as far and as hard Canonical does - but I always wonder if it has anything to do with legalities of providing services to costumers in a sense like it makes it easier for them not to get into legal trouble over supporting something they cannot 100% stand behind so they push snap since it is their product and therefore they got the support to fix people that do pay for their services so it kind of seems more like bad communication on why the push is necessary vs. "Canonical pushes it because they want to be bad/more like Microsoft" but I might be totally wrong in this one haha

On one hand I like the philosophy of having super easy install process and having everything to work out-of-the-box but on the other hand I don't think I am the one who can discern where the border should be before it all gets too overbearing and bloated for the system - it seems to have happened with Mint in my opinion and that was the main reason I switched (the others being aesthetic and support for Mate desktop users versus the treatment baseline Cinnamon users get :grin: )

And yeah, Wayland, don't really know or understand much about the whole thing nor do I feel I really need it in any way but I do think it could help people who do need it so I don't oppose it since it clearly is important to many in the Linux community.

I just hope that the future is bright for Ubuntu Mate since I do find this combo the easiest and best to use by far in comparison with everything I came in contact with (my friends have Arch and Windowses/Mac's and nothing compares to this at least for me in terms of how it "feels like home")

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Yupp a hard agree on everything said and I would also add - compared to reddit as well! Even though people sometimes do give helpful advice more often then not one must phrase the question/problem almost in a way it makes people want to correct you because too basic or simple question will just get ignored or get comments "google it it's easy". And I do understand people often don't know how to ask questions but I can't not feel bad when I see somebody struggle with linux and only getting answers that do not help or deter from learning how to use the OS properly.

Oh and one more thing - this forum is sorted in a very intuitive and logical way so people looking to report bugs or see announcements all know where to find information they need without scrolling endless text blobs so the knowledge generated in the community can be used efficiently.

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In my opinion, Snap has its good points, it allows you to use previous versions of apps that may have lost functionality, it makes sure that there won't be any problems with the necessary libraries, it encapsulates, etc. But all of this is a double-edged sword, because it duplicates and duplicates a lot. This consumes a lot more resources. And when I talk about Snap, I also talk about others like Appinagine, etc.
This whole packaging model, regardless of the type, in my opinion should be the exception for these specific cases, and I think that it exists for these specific cases.
But when they make it the standard and it's also imposed, and they don't give you the option of which app installation to choose and they automatically put the snap in, I don't like it.
Imagine that you have 10 apps open that use a specific library. If it's about snap, each one is lying in memory its own library for personal use of its app, when the library is the same and a shared use of resources could be made, there are losses in performance. You are multiplying by 10 the use of HDD, RAM and Processor. It's not something negligible. And the more snap is used, the more it will happen.
The Windows solution has always been, change hardware to support the improvements. That has not been the philosophy of Linux, but it is starting to be that of Canonical. In Linux, efficiency and simplicity have always prevailed. The clarity in understanding how things work.
As for Wayland, I have no doubt that it will be better than X11, but so far I have not found out how it works, in order to understand it. I only hear that many say that it works very well, that some distros want to force it on us, but my experience is the opposite, it has given me problems and I do not know how it works, nor can I find documentation or tutorials or explanations of how it works, only that some say that it works very well.
I think that Wayland still has time to be written, time to be known and experimented with by users who want to try it and test it. And to give the option in advanced distros to install it and try it and experiment with it. But not to impose it in LTS until this testing has corrected all the errors. And that the community has an understanding of how it works.

The mother distros, and Ubuntu, although derived from Debian, is already a mother distro of many others, should give multiple configuration options in some aspects. Like init, X11&Wayland, standard&snap packages, etc... Don't impose. One thing is to give a suggestion, another is to give several options and the one that is working best in Ubuntu is to impose. It is not something new. I already experienced it when Unity was imposed and unfortunately I fear that the result will be the same. Back down or start losing the most important thing that any distribution has: Its community.

I have always been an Ubuntu fan. When Ubuntu has let me down, I have retreated to Debian or some Ubuntu daughter distro. But although I think it is more complicated and I will have to change paradigms and invest in learning new things, I am attracted by many things from the Arch philosophy and community. I would not be surprised if the reference installation I make on my next computer is Arch. For now I am only studying it. The last time I abandoned Ubuntu for five years until I discovered MATE. And right now my loyalty is to the MATE Desktop more than to the Ubuntu distro. And I think the future of MATE is to separate itself from Ubuntu.

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I understand what you mean and I agree with what you've written. I now ask myself wouldn't it be best for Ubuntu/Canonical if it would keep the philosophy of "snap is a must have" for Ubuntu pro users and leave the basic one with options open to pick and choose?
In that way it could solve the issue of potential threats to safety for the ones that are subscribed to the pro since it would be expected from the subscribed party to follow TOS for pro subscription and in a way people wouldn't feel as though they don't have a say in what they do on their OS.

I strongly agree Canonical should not follow the Windows/Microsoft philosophy since it isn't a thing community wants from them and it would feel like betrayal of core values that gathered the people around them in the first place - world needs different ideas not clones of the same school of thought in my honest opinion.

And Wayland - yes, it should not be made mandatory on the OS install like snap, I think there should be a specific option in install guide to checkbox whether or not one wants to use it.

For the last bit - I am too new in Ubuntu community to know how it was when Unity was forced, I got into linux somewhere around 2017 with Mint and gradually am still learning bits and peaces since I'm not in tech related fields. But I do imagine MATE desktop on distribution like MX Linux since that debian-based distribution seems like it would make a great substitute if Ubuntu goes astray, and also because I, unfortunately, don't have high hopes LMDE Mint using it since base Mint MATE doesn't use the DE to its full potential. Main argument why MX Linux could make it as great as Ubuntu MATE is is the way I see how they managed to make XFCE desktop look and feel extra professional and cool compared to other XFCE iterations, and since it is regarded as "mid-weight" maybe collaboration with MATE would make a light-weight version on that debian-based distro (just a thought I got reading your reply).

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The problem is that I don't think that's Canonical's intention. Canonical is a company, it's normal for a company to try to create a market and obtain benefits. The problem or when you have to be careful is when a company seeks control over its users. This doesn't happen overnight, it happens little by little. Once something imposed by a company becomes a standard, it's very difficult to change that dynamic, even if it's pernicious. See Microsoft-Windows.
If you look at what Canonical wants to do, it's not different from other encapsulated package systems. It has created its own. And... a store. Come on, that's similar to the concept of the Apple Store or the Google Store. If you want an app, you go through the Canonical store and only through the Canonical store. Now, these apps are mostly free, but if you get used to working with that system, in the end, and they eliminate the alternatives, in the end, they will charge a fee or a commission for what is currently free.
Be careful. I am not against Gimp for example wanting to monetize its product, or make a premium paid version. But... paying a commission to Canonical and its store because it is the only way to access Gimp for example is not going to be a no-no. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I have seen that happen. And it can happen again if we users let it happen. I have no problem with companies having benefits. I do have a problem with those benefits going beyond the margin, or basing them on unofficial control of the markets. Or putting a price on something that has never had one.
But that is my opinion.
The philosophical basis of Linux is free, not without a price. But another part of its philosophy is open. This is understandable and accessible. Something expensive or with an artificial or inflated price. Why is this? Because a large part of the work in Linux is done by the community, voluntary and selfless. That others take that work from third parties and use it to profit is not right. There are ways to monetize that are not imposed and have been used in Linux since its beginnings. That is why the great majority of Linux distros are not only free, they are also free for the non-corporate user. For example, when you download an Ubuntu MATE . iso you can make a donation to support the project. RedHad sponsors Fedora to have experienced engineers who choose their distro as a work tool and to have a testing base. Canonical created Ubuntu for a bit the same reason.
But that is my opinion.
I will bring you up to date with what I know of the history as far as I am concerned. Ubuntu began in 2004 as a distro. I first came across it in 2007. At that time the desktop was based on Gnome2. The MATE desktop is based on Gnome2. In my opinion it was functional, robust, light, easy. It worked well. Ubuntu around then eliminated the Gnome2 desktop option in favor of its own desktop called Unity, trying to make it more attractive, similar in function and appearance to the icons on iPhones. With a different way of working. For them it was revolutionary. For users, from my point of view, it was less practical. At that time, Canonical wanted to put Ubuntu on smartphones and tablets. But it imposed the Unity desktop on everyone. After many operating errors, not knowing how to configure it, crashes, reinstallations and the obligation to change the way users use and work. Many, including myself, looked for other options after protesting in forums and being ignored. The problem is that the changes imposed affected other distros derived from Ubuntu such as Lubuntu and others, creating malfunctions in them. So Unity was not the only problem. They regained users with the work they did on Gnome3 (although I never liked it, because Gnome3 took many things from Unity, but I must admit that at least it worked better) and with the Ubuntu distro MATE (as is my case) which has been very successful.
As I said before, I like MATE as a desktop. The problem I see in MATE is that it has only evolved well in the Ubuntu distro. When I have installed MATE in other distros, such as "Debian" or "Loc-OS" the appearance of the interface, the elements of the panel, etc... Visually they have not evolved in 15 years and many of them do not integrate correctly or do not work well.
MATE needs to polish its desktop a bit more on other distros besides Ubuntu. Otherwise it runs the risk of becoming irrelevant, when in my opinion it is much better than many other lightweight desktops.
The tests I did on the "Loc-OS" distro between LXDE and Xfce, which come as default in this distro, gave me a RAM consumption of approx. 130 MB. The installation of MATE on this distro gave me a consumption of 150 MB. I don't mind that difference in consumption or even a bit more. In my opinion the MATE desktop is much more functional and practical than LXDE and Xfce. The problem is that LDXE and Xfce are better implemented to work with different distros. On the other hand, the MATE Desktop is only correctly implemented to work in its own Ubuntu distro. If you install it in any other distro, it looks awful, things are missing and others do not work correctly. It is just a very simple base, with no evolution or facelift for many years. In its own distro it is great, outside of it it needs a lot of work. So if Ubuntu stops working well, the MATE desktop goes down the drain.
I have to see, and I am in the process of trying some other distros that have the MATE desktop by default or as an option. To see if I find one in which this does not happen. Because what I have done so far has been to install the desktop in other distros, maybe some of those that have it by default or as an option have done a better job of polishing and integration, but as I said I am in the process of doing it with the little time I have.

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I'll allow myself to give you another example of why I don't like Ubuntu's snap and how it negatively affects other applications by reducing their efficiency and overriding them. Try it with a basic Linux command line application that has historically been widely used.

fdisk

This application is used to work with hard drive partitions. Before, the information it displayed was clear.

If you currently open a terminal and type in an Ubuntu distro:

$ sudo fdisk -l

Before, it informed you in a screenshot of the different partitions and their information in the format:

/dev/sd**

I repeat, at a glance you had the information you were interested in checking.

Now, if you do it, you will see that between 30 and 40 partitions appear among the requested information with the format

dev/loop*

These are the Snap files.
And you have to search through all of them to find the information you want, the information you requested. Which is to know which are the main partitions of your hard drive.

It wouldn't be a problem if they were one, two or three. But 30 or 40? Isn't that a lot that nobody asked for? Why not 300 or 400 and thus make it impossible to use "fdisk"? It's nonsense. It's disrespectful to the work of the developers and users of "fdisk". And it's bad practice on the part of Canonical to impose Snap at all costs.

That's an example that just happened to me, because I've done an "fdisk", but it's not the first, nor will it be the last time I see something like that and I don't like the result.

I repeat, Snap files have their uses and it's very interesting to use them, when they have to be used. Not by system and by imposition in the interest of future possible interests of Canonical.

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I see your point of view and I do agree to an extent but on the other hand I am trying to see the other side of the picture when Canonical is at hand because one thing I believe that sets it apart from Microsoft, for example, is that it is so reliant on the aforementioned community it is built upon and from. Microsoft can allow itself to get estranged from its core users more than Canonical could or wants because Canonical is so reliant on voluntary work of the people willing to support and promote its products. I think the fundamental base of both companies is so far apart that it is very unwise for Canonical staff to try and pull the same moves Microsoft does.

And I would like to make an example - Microsoft, when they announced and released Windows 8 was struggling to promote it as a substitute for Windows 7 but large majority of the community (myself included at the time) just straight up refused to move away from the Win7 and just stayed on the same old, familiar system. When Unity got out people just moved to another distribution because they had easier options and more know-how than Microsoft community has (it is far easier to migrate from Ubuntu to say Fedora than it would from Windows to Linux since you use all the same open-source base like Libre/Openoffice and such). And yes, Unity was dropped later on as I read but it made a big ripple and showed how easy it is to have different flavours of the same distro - for a company to allow its community to develop so many flavours of their mainline product and also support the different decisions they take (some in minimal install straight up don't give you snap as far as I am aware) - it gives me hope that it will never destroy the ability to have something a little bit different to what the mainline product wants to be.

Regarding protesting change - it is always good to speak your opinion in a civil way and I think it doesn't go unnoticed even when it feels like the voices are being ignored because if the ignore was there I don't think there would ever be and option on Ubuntu to ditch snap as a user because it would be "backed into" the system and I hope it never does because the possibility of options is what I see as one of the greatest attributes Linux offers.

What I feel is the main problem is that not enough people have or wants to set their free time to develop other options because it takes a lot of time, patience and does not provide enough money to be profitable to them. I myself know I cannot contribute on the tech side of things but I always try to help in a way of promoting the distribution be it in real life discussions or online when people ask for help/decisions. If I could I would work on development but I don't know much about computers since my field of work is social sciences - I can focus on how it affects us as society but when it comes to coding I don't know what is what.

One more thing I want to point out is that Ubuntu and Mint even more so, as far as I see, have a philosophy more in a way of making new people easier to start using computers and they aren't as focused in keeping older machines alive. It is a good business strategy as it made them so big and popular but in a wake of new protests of "Right to repair" movement I feel there should be more focus made in support of older hardware. We should care more about the electronic waste we produce by always pushing OS's that make older gen tech obsolete since not only do we produce waste but we also make it harder to people who cannot afford all the newest tech to fall behind and use sub-optimal solutions. If there was enough people developing Ubuntu and MATE I believe that then we would have an optional ISO for older generation of hardware but for now it is what it is and I am grateful that we do have at least this what we have. Because Linux as a whole made a great development and breakthrough looking back and there are at least some options in regards of distributions that are specifically streamlined for old hardware so that is great!

And in regards to options I think I will try the new GeckoLinux MATE next year (I read and watched some reviews and it seems like something that could implement MATE in a good way and may be an option in case something catastrophic happens with Canonical) - when I save enough money to build a new PC since I really am interested to see if it manages MATE in better way than Mint. I just think that I couldn't go back to Mint MATE since being on Ubuntu MATE made me spoiled with how good everything works and feels :yum:

Yeah I do understand what you mean here, even commands like "blkid" or "lsblk" list snap under partitions but it seems that at least when I use "blkid" the partitions (EDIT: listed but not described as partitions) I have on my laptop are listed first and later the list adds other snaps but yes I don't know why is it there but I do know there is a way to exclude it in "fdisk" if I understood the solution stated in this link: usb - how to "fdisk -l" excluding snap - Ask Ubuntu

It seems a bit long to memorize but it at least should work, I usually just use lsblk since it gave me all the info I needed for partitions when I had some issues in the past.

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Yes, there is always a way to exclude the information.
But as I say, it makes it difficult to use other administration programs.
It makes the system less clean and counterintuitive. It goes beyond the Linux standards by wanting to impose the Canonical standard in a dirty way.
In the forums, they make reference to defend the fact that a partition appears in relation to Firefox for translations. When you may not have or use Firefox on your system. It is crazy and totally absurd.
I understand that, as they say, it is an option to be able to use the translation dictionaries of different applications through that link. But the problem comes from 2021, there is more than enough time to do or correct the matter in a cleaner, more transparent and elegant way.
In addition, this practice forces you to maintain or makes it difficult to get rid of snap, because you would have to configure the translation dictionaries of the rest of the apps that use it, but that information is obscure. Forcing a trial-and-error process for the free choice of users, making it difficult for them. It is a bad practice and a malicious practice.
At the same time, they remove Firefox among many other applications from their official repositories when they put them through snap. In such a way that if you want to use those applications after removing snap you have to configure their own repositories.
Then when you update the version as it happened to me when I went from 22.04 to 24.04, those repositories are removed and you have to reconfigure them.

As I said, I'm already tired of the concatenation of bad practices from Canonical. And I'm very sorry I'm looking for options to remove Ubuntu completely from my desktops. For now I'm going to try Arch+Mate to see how it works and how it looks. I am hesitant to change the package system, but from what I see it is a distro in which, although the community is active and willing, the number of packages is large, and gives freedom to users to configure their system without impositions. It will be difficult for me to leave the .deb package system, to understand how the arch repositories and its pacman manager work, but it is always good to see and learn new things. I have also heard (I will have to check it out) that MATE is very well integrated into Arch.
I can tolerate being forced on if I am a user of non-lst versions to be up to date and to test and write things, I see it worse in lst versions.
I can tolerate a couple of impositions, a couple, but on one hand it is systemd, on the other wayland, now snap. Even so, let's accept the octopus as a pet, the fact that apart from all this, with each new edition the system is heavier, things work badly, many things get misconfigured and I have to reinstall old packages from previous editions manually, so that they work, etc... I'm tired, it will take a little more or a little less time. I will keep this Ubuntu MATE on this computer while I work out other options on other computers and virtual machines and learn to handle them in depth. But Ubuntu has 6 months until I abandon it and send it to ostracism. Because I don't think they will change their attitude in the next 6 months. The last 4 installations I have done have not been Ubuntu, they have been 2 Loc-OS and 1 Debian and a Devuan. They were not for me. But I am clear that I no longer recommend Ubuntu to anyone and I no longer install Ubuntu. At the time, more than 15 years ago, I said that I would no longer install Windows for any friend or family member. Since then, I have only reinstalled a personal Windows 10 out of necessity, I only use it on the rare occasions when I need it and once a year to update it. The same thing will happen with Ubuntu. It is the new Windows or worse.

Look, that distro (Guecko Linux) had fallen off my radar and seeing that it has a MATE desktop has given me another option to try, because I have heard good things about SUSE-based distros.

Thanks for the contribution. I will give it an option and study it.

I do not have development skills, just like you, my profession is not in that direction. I am an enthusiast and I like to learn for fun. And I do have the philosophical spirit of why do things badly or incorrectly when they can be done well with almost the same effort. I am very, very critical of the artificially mercantilist spirit. And of the deceptive marketing that tries to sell you smoke at a golden price. With programmed ossolescence and with artificially creating unnecessary expectations to commercialize them.

Mind you, that does not mean that things have to be free. But there must be a logical margin between price and cost. For example, I am a great reader. I spend 10 Euros a month on books. With the appearance of PDFs, I stopped buying books from many publishers after discussing their policy on the matter with them. I like to read on paper. I understand that current publishing is done digitally, that said publishing has a cost in salaries, and that this has to be reflected in the costs. But you cannot convince me that the cost of a PDF is the same as that of a printed book. Nor that when I buy a literary work I buy it in general and the price of the PDF is negligible. Therefore, I see it as artificially inflated that they try to charge me 30 Euros for the PDF of a printed book that they charge 40 Euros for. I also find it absurd to have to almost double the cost to have both formats. I understand that when I buy a printed book they also have to give me free access to the digital one. What I buy is the content because the pdf has a negligible price or I accept a symbolic price.
The publishers are free to set their policies, I am free to accept them and continue buying from them or not and invest my money and time in other things.
The same thing happens with the philosophy in relation to copying and personal reproduction. When you buy a disc, you have the right to copy it and reproduce it personally and for personal use. You can make photocopies of a book for personal use, etc. It is my philosophy or what I think is fair.

In the company where I work, from time to time they renew computer equipment. When I see them, I take some. I study them, and I see if they are still functional, easily repairable and with possibilities of use. Some have a damaged keyboard, others have it fine and what does not work is the screen. Some of the components of some and others can be repaired. The second problem is that they are 15 or 20 year old computers. They were designed for WinXP, some are 32-bit. But that doesn't mean that they don't work for everyday tasks for the average person. Linux has made many of these computers functional. I do it for the satisfaction of giving them a new life and I give them away or donate them once they work. I don't need to have 18 old laptops. The average person uses a laptop to connect to the Internet, view social networks, check their email, view multimedia content either directly or via streaming (youtube), do office work and little else. A computer like this, even if it takes 20 or 30 seconds to boot up, does it perfectly. So whoever receives it for free or at the cost of buying a power supply, is delighted.

Ubuntu in its beginnings gave many people the option to learn about Linux, because they did a good job in terms of hardware compatibility, and they took and popularized the LiveCDs of other distros. These LiveCDs allowed you to try Linux without having to install it on the main HDD or by being able to do a persistent installation on a USB, without removing Windows XP from the main HDD and leaving the computer exactly the same after removing the CD or USB.
As I say, Ubuntu was not the one who created LiveCDs, but they did spread it, and as I say, they did a good job of creating a good, simple installer with compatibility with a large amount of hardware. When they moved to Unity this changed, they started to be more selective with the hardware, giving installation and configuration errors in many installations. Now I am noticing the same thing.
One of the advantages and why I returned to Ubuntu was because of MATE. I got the feeling that it could be installed on any computer, it worked well on old computers and like a bull on modern ones, there was no problem in almost any installation regardless of the computer and its components, whether it had little memory, whether it was 32-bit, etc...
I love the MATE desktop, it requires few resources, it is very compatible, easy to configure and customize and efficient to work with, very intuitive for those coming from Windows and very stable.
I see the problem again in Ubuntu.

The thing is that I remember that the priority of the distros at that time when a new edition of the same came out was to inform about the fundamental elements.
These were mainly:
-The boot manager(s) available. Now it is all Grub, but at that time LILO was still very popular.
-The init. Nowadays almost all of them only have Systemd, not giving the option to others, which there are.
-The package system and package manager(s).
-The desktop(s). Gnome, KDE, LXDE, Xfce.
-The login manager.
-The window manager.
-And ultimately the apps.

Nowadays it is not that all this is not reported, but the information is not so clear. And I think that these elements are the main ones. It is true that for a neophyte, it sounds like Chinese if you report on SysVinit or Wayland or .deb or .rpm. But it is the components that make the difference not only in terms of operation but also the philosophy of the distro.

And it is the philosophy of Linux that makes the difference between Linux and other OS. This philosophy is not strict. Nothing happens if you use some non-free package. But when a distro starts to completely separate itself into many elements of said philosophy...bad.

Nobody says that Systemd does not work. But, for example, it violates the Linux principle that each element has to be light, do one thing, one thing only, and do it efficiently. And that its configuration elements have to be accessible in plain text, to be understandable. It is not that it is poorly documented, but it has so many variations, so many changes, and it does so many things unnecessarily that in the end it is very difficult to know what it does and what it does not do.
And I would understand the use and promotion of Systemd, if the promotion that was made of it regarding that it was faster because it started the processes in parallel and minimized the number of processes at startup, were true. The tests that I have done and many of us have done already, show the opposite. It starts many more processes, takes longer, is less efficient and more confusing to follow what it does. It goes against the philosophical principles of Linux.
With snaps, something similar happens with other principles.
And mind you, that does not mean that using Systemd, snap, etc... is bad and should not be done. What I am saying is that when a distro gives you the option to choose, and imposes these components on you, and these do not work as they sell that they work. And they go against the philosophical principles of Linux. And it is not just about one or two, but there are more and more of them. And in a totally unnecessary way. You are playing into the hands of the company behind the distro. And you work based on their interests, which are usually not yours.

I understand that the entry of new users is a basic principle. But almost all distros, not just Ubuntu, come with easy and efficient installers, as much or more than Ubuntu's.
I understand that the desktop is the most important thing as access, for me MATE is great in that aspect, but other light desktops work very well for newcomers as well, better than Ubuntu's Gnome3, which for people coming from Windows I see as counterintuitive. And it requires a paradigm shift.
I understand that someone who is starting out, and for me who is not starting out either, in Linux, is looking for an efficient way to do a new installation or an update. You don't find that the numeric keypad doesn't work because of a bad execution in the installer or in the design of the update. One of the reasons I abandoned Windows is because the OS was so slow even if you didn't use it. Every month or so it was noticeably slower. I wanted to be able to have an OS that I could use for a couple of years or three without it slowing down too much with the passing of days and updates. It's something that even if it seems like it's not noticeable from one update to another. If the update is well implemented, the system works the same. Yes, no, you notice that something is wrong, that it takes longer to start, that it requires more RAM, etc... Maybe I notice it because I mess around a lot with computers with limited resources. But at least I notice it. And that's how I can tell if an update is well done or not, at least for me.
And Ubuntu has been screwing up lately in that respect. A lot.

I'm sorry to vent against Ubuntu in this forum that is for Ubuntu. But it's also for MATE. And I think that Ubuntu is doing the reference distro and the desktop a distro that is not doing well as long as it goes down this path, and it should consider investing its resources in improving the implementation of the desktop for other distros that I think are more neglected, and not putting all its eggs in one basket.

I am not going to continue criticizing, because except for letting off steam, it has little productivity. And I think I have let off steam enough.

Good luck with Arch hope the MATE is as well integrated as you've been informed! A few of my friends run it and they manage, I know I could not - since you've mentioned systemd you might be interested more into antix linux since it's arch based but doesn't use systemd init system - there is a guide on setting up MATE in Antix/MX Linux: MATE – MX Linux (they are same group of people as it seems)

I don't really agree with the "not recommending Ubuntu anymore" part since I do believe that current problems aren't as big as they sometimes seem to be nor that other distros make anything that much better, on the contrary I still think Ubuntu + MATE is the best for me since I haven't had any issues that I could not solve in <15minutes. I don't see that any distribution+DE is as polished and "just works" as this one does hence this whole topic and I have been on Mint MATE for a few years before this - Ubuntu integration of this DE just is the best without any tinckering or time consumption, straight out of the box it just is professionally well done in my honest opinion. And my personal philosophy around computers and cars is - if it works well don't fidget with it.

I do hope you find the best solution on your distro exploration journey, do tell how well Arch implements MATE when you manage to set it up it really would be interesting comparison

Yeah I just learned about GeckoLinux a day or so ago and I am really interested since it does implement MATE out of the box so maybe when I get a second computer I will try it out just for fun since SUSE was always interesting as a company and distribution to me - not as a daily driver like debian-based systems are though since I do still have strong feelings of connection to "apt" commands :grin:

As for books and prices of PDF versions well I do know a bit about book productions and behind the scenes sort of stuff such as pricing of proofreading from a professional, price of aligning and page formatting for print (PDF, EPUB and all other versions of printed books come in that same designed version since they first make the process for printing and later they just convert it to other formats but when you are creating the book and pay somebody to format it for printing (design of the first and last pages, font/page size and all other stuff that comes along it still costs the publisher to make that)

Printing the book is just a fragment of the cost of making the book you also have to make into account how much money the publishing house needs to pay the author to purchase the rights to distribute their work and then also find a way to design the book in a way people would actually be interested in buying it (cover page design if you want a good one will cost you some decent money haha) So yes even though digital version should seem as far cheaper option it really isn't when you take into account that you are not only paying for print (printing books in large enough quantity is less expensive than printing 150-200 copies so books in small publishing tend to be more expensive) - when you want to publish your works today it does become a hustle believe me hahah

There is also a thing in most EU countries is "Fixed book price" law that allows publishers to dictate the price of a book and such prince is then printed on the back of the book around the barcode - the point of that law is that you cannot sell a book that costs 15 Euros for 14 Euros in one store and for 25 in the store where you don't have another store as an option so people are forced to buy for more.

As for computers yes I do agree, whenever I go to a library or to a small business firm there are still those old DELL dual-core computers form ten-fifteen years ago that are now running Windows 10 sluggishly slow but it is more about the laws and policies that don't incentivize optimizations enough since people would rather sit and wait 15 minutes to boot up computer than learn a bit different OS and applications since convenience is proffered even though in these cases convenience is just an illusion since it really isn't more convenient to spend 15 minutes on staring in a blank screen.
Just for that I believe Ubuntu/Canonical at least has the best chances to make a change in those environments because if there was enough incentive then maybe those computers would run something like Ubuntu MATE or Xubuntu (but then again there is always a push-back when it gets mentioned at least from my experience since the argument is "omg we should then need to pay for education of employees its too expensive bla-bla) - and believe me Canonical to me seems at least like an option that has a chance to make this change compared to some lesser known companies/distributions that don't get as much media coverage and/or are not as stable nor user-friendly as Ubuntu is.