Adapting to the future of app theming

[jaymo_chicago]

Continuing the discussion from What i think Mate can do better

Hi @ericmarceau I now completely understand where you are coming from.

Today I upgraded to 24.04 from 22.04 and noticed that, although the upgrade kept my Ambiant MATE theme set , many of the apps no longer take the theme (I assume they are GTK4 apps).

Switching to Yaru gives a consistent look regardless of the application -- so, it has forced me to move on from Ambiant MATE .

Ambiant MATE is a beautiful theme, but I agree, I first and foremost want a consistent theme. Yaru it shall be.

Jaymo

[ericmarceau]

I wasn't trying to "convert" you, but your experience is the best way to learn the "gotha's" that we have to keep our eyes open for, and finding the least painful adaptation that still provides a close semblance of what we would prefer to have.

Bottom line, as Users, we can't force developers to keep supporting older "technology" or "features" or "plug-ins", so we have to allow ourselves to be "pulled-along" in directions that fit closest to our preferences.

C'est la vie!

[Edit:]

I forgot to mention that the "infrastructure" within the Yaru-based themes is intended to be more "receptive" to future efforts by App Developers to implement what is referred to as "Client-side Customization", in a way that it is more cross-distro, cross-platform compatible.

Essentially, that industry initiative is to try to reinstate some of the early high-customizability of GUIs, but that is still a work-in-progress.

[Alarik]

While I do agree on the most part I still believe that supporting movements akin to "Right to repair" do allow the user/customer/consumer a right to have older tech supported and in turn keep something "alive" for longer than a company intended to

What we do need is a stronger focus of the importance of preserving old technological parts via educating youth through public education (be it informatics class, sociology class or anything in-between) - because educating people that expecting that a computer will last ten or more years when bought for a large sum of money should not be a laughing matter

Argument that "for the sake of technological advancement we must leave old tech behind" should be thoroughly questioned at any given point since most of the time it is not progressiveness but lazynes (and/or cost/benefit analysis) that push the narrative - this narrative often to me sounds like a pacifier more than an honest argument since mostly it is used when people are aggravated by a change that upsets their everyday use of technology

On the other hand - this argument should first and foremost be held when it comes to big for-profit organizations/companies since we all know it is those that volunteer that mostly try to keep the old tech alive as long as they can but more often then not big pushes from profit-oriented figures tend to make the work of supporting outdated tech so inviable an option that sometimes people have to concede with bitter feelings

[jaymo_chicago]

@ericmarceau

I wasn't trying to "convert" you, but your experience is the best way to learn the "gotha's" that we have to keep our eyes open for, and finding the least painful adaptation that still provides a close semblance of what we would prefer to have.

@ericmarceau All is good and I understand that you were not trying to get me on Yaru. This I decided due to the Ambiant MATE theme not being picked up by all applications. And honestly, Yaru is not so bad now I'm on it.

I have a feeling this thread was my stubbornness showing, knowing deep down I will have to move on one day due to technologies advancing but wanting to hold on to the good ol' skeumorphic design as long as I can (sensibly).

I honestly have a new appreciation for what developers have to go through with adapting to technologies that continue to evolve.

I apologise if I took this thread and completely went in a different direction.

Jaymo

[ericmarceau]

@Alarik

Argument that "for the sake of technological advancement we must leave old tech behind" should be thoroughly questioned at any given point since most of the time it is not progressiveness but lazynes (and/or cost/benefit analysis) that push the narrative

Please understand, Alarik, what I say below is not a rebuke. I am all for keeping old pieces functional.

But unless you yourself have learned the skills to become fully "sef-reliant", and are able to "self-maintain" the Open-Source OS/tools that you choose to use, à la car mechanics, we must, as non-mechanic "drivers" face the realities of our situation and submit to what will get us out of our "broken car" dilemma, which is

[a] to accept the "mechanic's" recommended part substitution (aka new App/version),

or

[b] trade in the old "car" for a new "hot rod" (swap out the OS/config for a new OS/config).

I hate the first scenario strongly enough already, and even more so the second scenario. But unless I am prepared to become a full-fledged multi-skilled "mechanic" (a.k.a Developer) myself, without Government regulation that actually dictates, and enforces, "maintainability and continuing support" of older software/hardware, we suffer a drain on our limited psychic energies ... and directing those into a bottomless pit, with no hope of benefit in return.

It isn't what I want, but I have to accept "the way of the world" and I have to move forward by abandoning my "broken car" and getting "new shiny wheels".

Otherwise, I would find myself"starving on the side of the road".

[Alarik]

I understand completely, no worries and I feel quite the same although in my country it's not as hard to fix stuff as it is outside of European Union since we have a lot of the stuff standardized and people like to fix their own stuff (at least me and my friends do haha)

The problem isn't just the idea of saving an old car but the concept of preserving old owned objects which is undermined by the current dominant paradigm of the fast-fashion late capitalism we live in - an example - I am sketching an idea of remodeling my bathroom and I cannot for the life of me find the same quality or better tiles than the ones I have now that are almost thirty years old (at least not in the non-obscene price range) - I recently bought an old oak table and set of matching chairs because the ones sold in Ikea/Jysk and similar shops just sell tables with "oak veneer" and I don't trust it is built to last for even a decade.

Same can be applied to current technology market where we see new laptops/mobile phones without removable batteries, poor craftsmanship and cheap plastics glued together to last until the warranty expires - and what is sad is that most of the consumers do indeed buy those cheap furniture/tech and don't mind it since the thought is "I can easily buy a newer one in two-three years"

I am maybe old-fashioned in that regard that I wish for my appliances to at least serve me 8-10 years and in that same sense I too "have to accept the way of the world" but begrudgingly so

And don't get me started with the "hot rod, new cars" and their obtrusive way of implementing telemetry/tech/complications... - but again, we have to move along with what time brings and hold on to what can be salvaged at least haha

[jaymo_chicago]

@ericmarceau and @Alarik I agree with both of your points in your messages. It may not be ideal, or at all preferable, but sometimes it might just be time to move along (honestly, after a couple days, I'm ok with the new theme now).

@Alarik

he problem isn't just the idea of saving an old car but the concept of preserving old owned objects which is undermined by the current dominant paradigm of the fast-fashion late capitalism we live in

I also cannot stand this. I see the people around me of a similar age range (late Millennial) get addicted to the bright flashy new thing, and it's awful (not just technology, but applicable to any aspect of life). I want things to work/function/be "held together" until they are broken and then I replace them, hopefully with something of equal or higher quality without breaking the bank. Heck, I bought a pair of shoes 7-8 years ago and after wearing them the majority of days to work, for 7-8 years, they are finally "falling apart". I call that a win. A lot of people I know would want to get a different pair of shoes every year to "stick with the trend". Just like smartphones, laptops, or anything else.

However, with @ericmarceau 's explanation, I understand it's not just about the shiny new thing, but in this case, the inner workings of the Ambiant MATE theme make it difficult to work with and adapt to new applications (i.e. Client Side). This I understand, because I want my theme to look consistent over anything else, and I don't possess the skills nor the time to fix Ambiant MATE to work with GTK4 apps or the like.

@Alarik

And don't get me started with the "hot rod, new cars" and their obtrusive way of implementing telemetry/tech/complications...

Don't get me going on this either haha! My used car has none of that nonsense (no cameras, blind spot, etc. and yes I need a KEY not a FOB to get in and start it). Hopefully it serves me for many more years to come because I'm really not looking forward to having new computer technology take over my car.

Jaymo

[ericmarceau]

@jaymo_chicago

My used car has none of that nonsense (no cameras, blind spot, etc. and yes I need a KEY not a FOB to get in and start it).

Too true! Now if only we could eliminate the likes of "No-Skid-Braking", driving in snow would be a hell of a lot safer! NBS is counter-intuitive for people who have actually learned to drive in snow and have developed the instinct to recover from loss of control.

[jaymo_chicago]

@ericmarceau

Too true! Now if only we could eliminate the likes of "No-Skid-Braking", driving in snow would be a hell of a lot safer! NBS is counter-intuitive for people who have actually learned to drive in snow and have developed the instinct to recover from loss of control.

Agreed, and living in a country where we get snow a lot, this is something I learned in driving school.

If I may reopen the topic about theming, I am noticing one "inconsistency" still with the Yaru theme I'm using on Ubuntu MATE 24.04.2. I'm not sure if it's worth opening a thread in the support section as I haven't had the time to diagnose/check this, but I have the noticed the following.

I am using Yaru-MATE dark theme. The window on the left is an instance of Atril (possibly GTK3 app). The window on the right is an instance of Deja Dup Backups (possibly GTK4 app).

The Atril window grabs the Yaru dark theme correctly. However, the Deja Dup Backups window seems to grab the Yaru theme but not the "dark" aspect.

As I don't consider this a "bug" (rather an "inconsistency" that does not affect my ability to use my production machine), this is low on my priority scale and I may try and figure this out when I get some free time.

However, I'm curious if this has happened to anyone else.

Jaymo

[ericmarceau]

Not knowing Deja Dup intimately myself, it seems like an App-originating issue, in that it has not correctly interfaced with you Desktop Manager or Theme.

From looking at Ubuntu's Launchpad, my interpretation is that there doesn't appear to be much effort to "fully integrate" Deja Dup Backup into the Ubuntu ecosystem, let alone UbuntuMATE specifically.

Given that Deja Dup Backup is part of the GNOME tool suite, your guess that it is a GTK4 issue is probably true, in that GNOME is more likely to "raise" their tool code to their latest standard.

That being the case, would there be a version of Deja Dup Backup that was implemented with the last GTK3-based GNOME and rolling back to that version of Deja Dup to see it that discrepancy disappears? You would have to look at release notes to see if there is any point at which they spell out the abandon of GTK3, or not.

Apparently, there was a recent change to the GUI for Deja Dup Backups:

Déjà Dup Backups UI Refresh

Could it be related to that?

Depending on whether you feel up to it, you could look to see if there is any chance of having the GTK-4 libraries installed in parallel with GTK-3. It seems that GitHub shows the two are in the code tree for Yaru themes. Yes, I do realize that would imply bloat, but if Deja Dup Backup is your tool of choice, then you may be forced to do that at some point if the APIs for GTK-3 and GTK-4 become too incompatible with each other.

---

As for the elephant in the room, given the talk of evolving display "engine" (Wayland/WayFire/other), are GNOME and UbuntuMATE going in parallel, or diverging, paths and, if diverging, adopting core GNOME tools for your Ubuntu environment is a risky proposition, unless that tool's developers want it to be cross-platform portable and support multiple technologies (which is the reverse of much of what I see for Desktop environments and non-commercial tools).

[ericmarceau]

@Alarik

And don't get me started with the "hot rod, new cars" and

Another thing, I never saw the appeal of smart phones. I only have a dumb, flip-top cell-phone for emergencies only, and that number is never shared! Having worked in tech, I saw that tech was too "exposed" to even contemplate trusting it with credit card info, let alone banking info in an electronic wallet. What absolute madness!

[Alarik]

Another thing to question about the modern technology is Smart Break System or similarly named systems that auto-break when they detect obstacles which can be very dangerous in certain situations and one cannot permanently shut the option off
(at least in new Mazda cars as I know from people that drive them either you will turn it off each time you start your car or you accept driving with that "weight" in mind since sometimes it works and sometimes it is too conservative and can cause danger more than prevent one - for example earlier models were literally returned to be re-programed since they were malfunctioning from the get-go)

The same thing that I would equate it with could be a future of immutable distributions - and even though I sometimes ponder the idea of a stern base that can just be re-written as an image with each update, with apps totally sand-boxed, to make the ease-of-use to end-consumer I still have some fears that the way immutability will be implemented may be too restrictive to most Linux OS users that prefer the freedoms the "normal" distribution does provide as compared to competition

[jymm]

I had the ABS braking system go out on a vehicle and I refused to fix it. The light being on was irritating and the mechanic would bring it up everything I had to take it in for service. But I was actually able to pump the brakes to stop if I skidded. I grew up where when you learned to drive you went out o a frozen lake and intentionally put you car into skids until you handled them by instinct.

I feel sorry for the kids coming up, all the electronics and screens will need replacing while the mechanical parts of the vehicle will last much longer and the screens electronics will be to expensive to fix. I wonder what they will be able to afford to drive.

[Alarik]

Hmm as for this - is the Deja Dup Backups a flatpak or APT app? I think this would be of help:

https://www.baeldung.com/linux/gtk-applications-dark-theme

This link provides information on how to completely integrate the desired theme across all applications that are GTK

[jaymo_chicago]

@ericmarceau

Could it be related to that?

After reviewing the GNOME Thread post, it appears the version of Deja Dup backups I have is the "old" style (with the two buttons on top).

I thought it could be app-specific as well, but noticed the following:

• GNOME Games Mahjongg, Mines, and Sudoku follow the same behaviour as Deja Dup Backups (i.e., accepts Yaru but not the "dark-theme" aspect)
• EVOLUTION Mail follows this behaviour as well
• MATE specific tools (Caja, Engrampa, Pluma, Atril, etc.) and LibreOffice do not exhibit this behaviour
• PulseEffects which also has Client Side decorations as it seems does not exhibit this behaviour

The GNOME Games were installed using the Software Boutique in Ubuntu MATE 22.04, then upgraded to current versions in 24.04.

PulseEffects was installed using APT (via Terminal) in Ubuntu MATE 22.04, then upgraded to current versions in 24.04.

Deja Dup Backups was part of the suite of software included in a Full Installation of Ubuntu MATE 22.04 (where it did not exhibit this behaviour), then got upgraded to current version in 24.04.

󰕈 jadams ~   09:47  ❯ apt search deja-dup
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
deja-dup/noble,now 45.2-1build2 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  Backup utility

deja-dup-caja/noble,noble,now 0.0.9-0ubuntu1 all [installed,automatic]
  Caja extension for Déjà Dup

󰕈 jadams ~   09:48  ❯ apt search pulseeffects               
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
easyeffects/noble-updates 7.1.6-1ubuntu0.24.04.1 amd64
  Audio effects for PipeWire applications

gstreamer1.0-adapter-pulseeffects/noble,now 4.8.7-2build3 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  GStreamer adapter plugin

gstreamer1.0-autogain-pulseeffects/noble,now 4.8.7-2build3 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  GStreamer autogain plugin

gstreamer1.0-convolver-pulseeffects/noble,now 4.8.7-2build3 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  GStreamer convolver plugin

gstreamer1.0-crystalizer-pulseeffects/noble,now 4.8.7-2build3 amd64 [installed,automatic]
  GStreamer crystalizer plugin

pulseeffects/noble,now 4.8.7-2build3 amd64 [installed]
  Audio effects for PulseAudio applications

󰕈 jadams ~   09:49  ❯ apt search gnome-sudoku
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
gnome-sudoku/noble,now 1:46.0-1build1 amd64 [installed]
  Sudoku puzzle game for GNOME


󰕈 jadams ~   09:49  ❯ apt search gnome-mahjongg
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
gnome-mahjongg/noble,now 1:3.40.1-1 amd64 [installed]
  classic Eastern tile game for GNOME

Thus, it seems like all of these are installed via the APT Package manager.

Thanks

Jaymo

EDIT: Don't worry about the characters not showing up in the prompt. I have a Starship theme that requires the nerd font to display properly.

[jaymo_chicago]

@Alarik Thanks Alarik. The Deja Dup Backup was part of the Ubuntu MATE FULL installation on Ubuntu MATE 22.04, then got upgraded when I moved from 22.04 to 24.04, and after checking in the Terminal it was installed via APT.

[Alarik]

Since the update does the app still present in light or in dark theme?

[jaymo_chicago]

The Deja Dup backups app shows light since the upgrade to 24.04 (in 22.04 it was dark and followed my Ambiant MATE Dark theme). Please see screenshot below:

[Alarik]

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/77675462/dark-mode-not-applying-on-certain-apps-in-ubuntu-23-10

After some search I found this thread - even though it's GNOME Ubuntu I think checking settings.ini of that Deja Dup app is worth checking out as I quote from the link:
check the contents of the folders ~/.config/gtk-3.0 and ~/.config/gtk-4.0

** For example, I found mine had a settings.ini file with an entry gtk-application-prefer-dark-theme=0, which I promptly changed to gtk-application-prefer-dark-theme=1*

[jaymo_chicago]

Thanks Alarik. I tried the fix that you provided, but now this is getting weird.

Firstly, I did not have a ~/.config/gtk-4.0 folder and under my ~/.config/gtk-3.0 folder, there was no settings.ini file.

However, I decided to check under dconf-editor and indeed the color-scheme entry was set to prefer-light. I changed it to prefer-dark, which changed dconf-editor from light to dark (correctly set!!), then I restarted the computer and checked if it kept it. Bam, it was reset to prefer-light.

Next, I added a settings.ini file to ~/.config/gtk-4.0 (after making the folder) and added the following line:

gtk-application-prefer-dark-theme=1

Then I restarted the computer.

Nope. Dconf-editor was still in light theme (probably gtk4 app) and the color-scheme entry was set to prefer-light once again.

I'm not too sure what is going on here. I would assume that if I set the colour scheme that it would keep it (i.e., keep it dark instead of resetting to light).

Thanks

Jaymo