New default layout in Ubuntu MATE 18.04

Development Discussion
85

Simple counterpoint to what seems to be the upset over spilled milk sentiment here since I’m not recognizing anything remotely resembling breaking changes here.

The tech stack for Ubuntu is changing - alot.

Martin / UM team has kept up. Quite nicely I might add.

They want to entice more users so there is momentum and funding to continue to do so from said supporters. To not respond to that would actually be irresponsible for the UM team and Mr Wimpress.

By definition your obviously more conservative desires for the UM desktop are going to be diluted by the preferences of the new userbase. The fact that UM is clearly working quite definitively to preserve your preferred user experience and (exceedingly well I’d say by almost any measure) managing to do that and allow new users to come aboard and be happy with the experience is basically the topic of the day, and what the team is to be commended for. Literally as he said, you can restore the defaults quicker than you wrote this post.

Additionally, just as the other counterpoint, if they’d kept the traditional default menu and desktop metaphor (and not enabled Superkey function), I would specifically NOT use Ubuntu Mate because I don’t like the default metaphor or menu. I’m not a Gnome user from way back when, and thus that layout is neither familiar or desirable to me.

Another commenter mentioned bugginess for the Brisk Menu - if that’s the case then hey that’s valid criticism. I’ve not experienced it, but if it is present, I would second the motion to say that if it’s the default choice, it needs to be pretty close to bug free.

Thanks for the post - I think you were able to express yourself without being harsh or rude, but just wanted to point out that ensuring the best overall experience for his userbase (folks continuing to follow the parade leader) is in my opinion exactly what Martin has accomplished here. It’s a fine line to walk to be able to support a dual platform (x86 and ARM) userbase, folks with strong opinion about keeping the old traditional UI - and manage to be one of the more respected choices for all of the above, so hats off to the team and also to all of the behind the scenes general linux improvements to the community this project has both funded supported and otherwise dedicated resources to.

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86

Again, I am compelled to reply to this. The problem, speaking only for myself, was not the layout change per se. It was:

  1. The change being made despite a consultation and poll that was carried out that showed the vast majority of users in that consultation and poll did not want the change, despite your assertion to the contrary.

  2. The change being made without informing users first. Now, I know that the change, initially, was in the beta and the usual repost is that is was merely “experimental”. Well, we know now that it was anything but “experimental” since it has since been implemented in the upcoming LTS. And, just to add insult to injury, the new Brisk layout was going to be called “traditional”, just to confuse the issue further.

  3. The change, having been initially implemented in the beta, did not still provide the original Traditional (Gnome-2-like) layout in Mate Tweak. To confuse things even further, the new layout was going to be a Frankenstein mixture of parts of the Traditional menu along with the Brisk menu. The only way, then, that users would be able to implement the original traditional menu layout would me to manually re-build it.

However, following the strong objections raised in the previous thread on this issue to all of the above, there has now been an entirely sensible arrangement arrived at;

Firstly, the Brisk menu will, indeed be the basis of the new default layout. But, it will not be called “Traditional” and will, instead, be called “Familiar”. Secondly, the original “Traditional” layout will be offered as one of the layout options in Mate Tweak. Thirdly, all layouts will be offered at initial login on the welcome screen.

All of which is entirely commendable and excellent.

None of which, I would contend, would have happened if significant objection in the previous thread had not occurred.

That, for me, is (or should be) the end of the matter.

But, I object to and will continue to object to, where I see it, a re-writing of events. A re-writing that can only be based on either ignorance of those events or on a disingenuous recounting of them

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87

You are correct @stevecook172001

Screenshot at 2018-03-29 17-42-43.png703×215 44 KB

Perhaps the only good thing that came out of the poll is that the traditional layout is still included. If we all had not voted to keep it as the default, it may have been done away with all together, which may still happen someday.

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88

however remember that poll was whether or not pantheon, I wouldn’t like pantheon though I would care,this is not pantheon there has been no poll between Familiar and traditional so one doesn’t know how the community would have voted, there would be many potential reasons to vote against pantheon but not familiar ie plank, HUD, one panel vs 2, workspace switcher placement, lack of window menu… I’m not against having either, but I see Martin’s logic behind the change and think it good, ie most windows users have used the super key for opening the menu

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89

Again, this is muddled at best or disingenuous at worst. That poll was about whether or not to change the default main menu layout from Traditional. Users in that poll voted overwhelmingly for it not to change.

For you to attempt to make an argument along the lines of;

“but if they had been offered the Brisk menu… who knows if they might have voted for it. Therefore, we can ignore the result the poll…”

is akin to arguing;

"they might well have voted differently if they had been offered a million quid/threatened with bodily harm/insert your fantasy alternative reality here. Therefore, we can ignore the result of the poll…

Your argument is very similar to ones used by politicians to justify ignoring the electorate when the electorate votes in a way they do not like.

In conclusion, I have to say it is irritating me mightily to be having to come back on here and post these replies since the matter is now satisfactorily and fully resolved, by my estimation.

But, I will not stand by and see reality be re-written as something it was not.

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90

Greetings.

For me, horizontal space is not a problem.
3 keys for Applications, Places, and system would be better because it does not postpone another selection process!

I really get irritated when the cancel and save buttons are not on the screen and there are no scrollbars.
so far, that is not a problem on the desktop menu.
Jay

91

Oh boy.

This is getting tiresome. Take a look at the poll steven linked. This question was asked and out of the seventy-one people who bothered to vote only 22.01 agreed with changing the default. That's what this has been about--defaults. Oh and lying or misdirection or even 'Hey we changed our minds and it's our ball--deal with it!' which ever one you prefer to call it when they snuck it in a daily and prevaricated when called on it by those of us who thought this was settled already.

And you know what? It's true. This is Wimpy's distro. He can do whatever he likes with it. He wants to veer even closer towards being a LinuxMint clone, that's his choice. It's not like the theme didn't clue us in long ago that this was the Ubuntu for people who wanted to use Mate but not LinuxMint's Mate.

I refuse however to be slandered. Or let people treat me like Jordan Peterson. ''So you're saying..." No, let me tell you what I'm saying.

Ubuntu-Mate was advertised as the Ubuntu Distro with the Mate desktop. The same desktop some of us have been enjoying for the last ten or more years that it's been available. It's the reason most of us are here. We liked the way Ubuntu's version of the Gnome 2.x desktop looked and behaved, it was familiar to us. This distro offered us that experience again out of the box. So we came back from where ever we had scattered to while Canonical frittered away money playing with Unity. Canonical could have started the Mate Desktop themselves--I wonder how much more would be using Ubuntu and Linux today if they had?

So after winning us over with one of the best desktop experiences in the world, what has Wimpy decided to do? He'd decided to shove us off into the corner for a mere 31% of his userbase in defiance of the clear majority of people who saw the poll and cared enough to vote in it. Let me remind you for the reason behind the change:

To me that says there is a bug that needs to be fixed to make the various layouts work better with each other and the upgrade process. Because unless that happens I guarantee that it will always be a non-trivial matter to migrate those settings. The result? Well look at the git:

Screenshot at 2018-03-29 22-20-15.png574×476 30 KB

We're going back to the dark ages it says. And the default layout that is the dark ages according to this? Ubuntu-Mate.

So yes, this is a big deal. Defaults always are. If it was not such a big deal, why not simply set it so every time the user logs in they get a different layout? It's all the same right?

I'm thrilled at the many different layouts. I think it's great to have so many options available. I just think they should remain options.

Eh? What about your options? You have literally every other distro under the sun, leave this one for the people who wanted it. Leave us this one. Why can't you make those simple adjustments? We were here first!

Otherwise don't be surprised if the "Tradition" of Ubuntu-Mate ends here. Out of sight means out of mind. Ask yourself why there is a focus on replacing the default layout rather than fixing it so that new layout settings can be added and migrated?

In any case I'm tired. I'm tired of being accused. I've not lied. I've sourced my statements previously in the thread. I'm tired of being accused of bad faith by people who just want new shineys. I repeat, if it's really so trivial and the community has made its thoughts known why can't you make the adjustment.

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92

Yep. Spilled milk.

The position you’re staking out is the same corner Gnome has painted
themselves into and the same technological debt trap many a linux distro
has allowed themselves to fall into. Hope that you can find some peace
with it eventually.

93

Biggest in terms of numbers using, numbers downloading, or biggest in terms of money brought in?

And yet this user base seems to get the least attention? Raspberrypi ubuntu-mate has some serious flaws that regularly get reported on this forum. The next release for pi users will be in July I think?

Defaults are a matter of personal preference (personally I don't like the brisk style menu, but the traditional menus have been a cluttered mess for a long time), but it is quite annoying that things like this are placed above fixing bugs. I can't at the moment recommend people use Ubuntu-mate on the raspberry pi because a standard update of packages will break it.

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94

I would say numbers downloaded otherwise distrowatch could be a lot more accurate, though anyone’s guess at this point.

95

To be clear, I am satisfied with the changes as currently outlined (however, I am bound to say, I do believe those changes, as they are currently outlined, would not have occurred in the absence of significant objection to the initial changes).

I’m just not fine with being mis-characterised or with reality being re-framed

I don’t like dishonesty.

That’s it really.

96

Can’t wait until ubuntu MATE 18.04 LTS release with new standard panel layout. It’s a good choice and a step further in the great development of ubuntuMATE. To people I have shown ubuntuMATE the Brisk menu is preferred over the old style menu. Me myself use the contemporary panel layout, even more advanced and modern :slight_smile: Keep up the good work and the great direction ubuntuMATE is developing into.

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97

Can’t wait anymore have to try new Familiar panel layout in my business and private. Really likes it on new ubuntuMATE 18.04 LTS. Also gonna install it on a couple of friends computer. Yes, I know it’s a beta, but this is special circumstances as we lawyers call it :smile:

98

Writing this from ubuntuMATE 18.04 LTS after upgrades. Works perfect. Gonna stay with the new default Fimiliar panel, really nice. Also very slick MATE desktop now. Thank You, @Wimpy and others!

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99

My post was in no way an attempt to confuse things, perhaps my remarks about differences between layouts made it seem I was saying something I was not, I looked at the post and its title is (Poll: Pantheon to become the default layout in 17.10) to me that simply asks whether or not the community wanted pantheon or not, not whether or not the community wanted a new default, unless we are talking about a different poll, I like to have things clearly defined, in my eyes that poll simply rejected the Pantheon layout as default, however I do not wish to carry on an argument, I just wish to state things as I see it, However It seems that as long as the traditional layout is kept most people are ok with it, and I do not think Wimpy will remove it or let go the features that make it possible, unless in 3001 it becomes deprecated at which point we will not be here to discuss it likely, If I am i will be in a wheelchair for sure :smiley:

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100

Well that was a long interesting read, and now my two cents worth. First off I’m not a DEV of any distro. I’ve been using Linux long enough that I look for something that I can work with that suits my needs and then customize it to my taste. Since I’ve been doing this since the early 90s I have seen Gnome and KDE both in their early stages look like really poor Windows 3 clones more or less.

One of the best things about Linux has always been the ability to add and remove what you like and don’t like. So if you approach from that angle it saves you alot of angst. I don’t like Gnome and KDE anymore because the focus in those camp seems to have turned development to using only what for the most part is centered around their development process or environment making them less modular and limiting your ability to replace what they have deemed official with what you prefer to use. In Gnomes case in order to make it even a somewhat bearable experience you have to install a host of extensions to make it palatable which may not function with the next upgrade of the windows manager. KDE on the other hand is trying to create the ultimate modern flashy environment with plasma. No big deal except at some point they are going to need to actually address the stability issues that have had since the 4 series.

So why am I using Ubuntu Mate? It is pretty simple. The software and driver access from Ubuntu, and at this point I still have the ability to add and remove from the system with little to no consequence. I can still set it up to suit my needs, tastes, and have a polished user experience when all is said and done.

I personally don’t Like anything but a single panel on my desktop with a few things on it. Never been a fan of docks and such. So one of the first things I did after installing 18.04 was to purge plank. I also deleted the bottom panel. I prefer the traditional approach to things, so I purged Brisk as well. Not a fan of Compiz so I use Marco GPU compositing. Then it is a simple process of removing the programs I don’t like or use and installing the ones I prefer to use.

What do I expect from the Devs? It’s pretty simple. Just turn out a stable product that I can use, and modify to my liking. They can concern themselves with fixing the bugs that will pop up and blending in the new package releases. They can package that in any wrapper they want since they are the ones doing the hands on. Just leave me the ability to change things to suit my tastes. I believe the Devs here are doing an excellent job of that.

All I can say to those complaining is this. The Devs are gracious enough to follow their passion and share the fruits of their time and work with us. As far as I am concerned they can package it to look anyway they want as long as the ability is still there for me to change things to suit my needs and tastes and the base environment is stable. I think they have done that remarkably well. I look at it like this you can modify what you are given to suit your likes and dislikes, or do it the Arch way and piece each piece of the puzzle together yourself. Ultimately the Devs have a large serving on their plates dealing with what is currently out there as well as what is coming. Appreciate the fact that they are doing the majority of the ground work for you. Then take a little time to make the install your own, and share issues you are having as well as fixes you might have discovered to help the Devs and community.

Not much else I can think off to add to this rambling, Since it is time to get ready for work I will leave you with this last thought…Cut the Devs a little slack. They are doing a fine job.

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101

Well that was a long interesting read, and now my two cents worth. First off I'm not a DEV of any distro. I've been using Linux long enough that I look for something that I can work with that suits my needs and then customize it to my taste. Since I've been doing this since the early 90s I have seen Gnome and KDE both in their early stages look like really poor Windows 3 clones more or less.

Fine. That is to say that is your subjective opinion and you are entitled to it. I happen to agree with much, though not all of it. But, then, that is my subjective opinion also

One of the best things about Linux has always been the ability to add and remove what you like and don't like. So if you approach from that angle it saves you a lot of angst. I don't like Gnome and KDE anymore because the focus in those camp seems to have turned development to using only what for the most part is centered around their development process or environment making them less modular and limiting your ability to replace what they have deemed official with what you prefer to use. In Gnomes case in order to make it even a somewhat bearable experience you have to install a host of extensions to make it palatable which may not function with the next upgrade of the windows manager. KDE on the other hand is trying to create the ultimate modern flashy environment with plasma. No big deal except at some point they are going to need to actually address the stability issues that have had since the 4 series.

So why am I using Ubuntu Mate? It is pretty simple. The software and driver access from Ubuntu, and at this point I still have the ability to add and remove from the system with little to no consequence. I can still set it up to suit my needs, tastes, and have a polished user experience when all is said and done.

I personally don't Like anything but a single panel on my desktop with a few things on it. Never been a fan of docks and such. So one of the first things I did after installing 18.04 was to purge plank. I also deleted the bottom panel. I prefer the traditional approach to things, so I purged Brisk as well. Not a fan of Compiz so I use Marco GPU compositing. Then it is a simple process of removing the programs I don't like or use and installing the ones I prefer to use.

What do I expect from the Devs? It's pretty simple. Just turn out a stable product that I can use, and modify to my liking. They can concern themselves with fixing the bugs that will pop up and blending in the new package releases. They can package that in any wrapper they want since they are the ones doing the hands on. Just leave me the ability to change things to suit my tastes. I believe the Devs here are doing an excellent job of that.

Again, fine. I agree with much of that. But certainly not all of it. But, that is my prerogative, as your opinion is yours.

All I can say to those complaining is this. The Devs are gracious enough to follow their passion and share the fruits of their time and work with us. As far as I am concerned they can package it to look anyway they want as long as the ability is still there for me to change things to suit my needs and tastes and the base environment is stable. I think they have done that remarkably well. I look at it like this you you can modify what you are given to suit your likes and dislikes, or do it the Arch way and piece each piece of the puzzle together yourself. Ultimately the Devs have a large serving on their plates dealing with what is currently out there as well as what is coming. Appreciate the fact that they are doing the majority of the ground work for you. Then take a little time to make the install your own, and share issues you are having as well as fixes you might have discovered to help the Devs and community.

Mot much else I can think off to add to this rambling, Since it is time to get ready for work I will leave you with this last though......Cut the Devs a little slack. They are doing a fine job.

Not fine;

Nobody has said they could not package it how they want. What some have said, including myself, is that they should not consult users and then ignore the result of that consultation and then, in ignoring it, attempt to sneak through what they wanted in the first place and then, following that, attempt to re-frame all of the above as just some people complaining about nothing as you have just done. This always was and is, for me, about honesty. If Martin (and/or other devs) wanted to ditch the Traditional" layout as default, then he/they should not have held a poll. Or, if he/they felt so strongly about it, even after the poll, then he/they should have been honest enough, in the first instance, to simply come out and state they were going to change it anyway because they felt so strongly about it. Some may have liked it and some may not. But, that's life and would have been honest and that has to be respected. Indeed, this is what has now (finally) happened and that is good. But, it has only happened, after the fact of a great deal of entirely unnecessary disputation.

I say all of the above while, repeatedly stating that the changes, as now outlined, are more than acceptable, to me at least. But, what is not acceptable, is lies (or ignorance of events) pretending that the changes, as currently outlined, is how it was all along. The changes as currently outlined (including, most notably, Traditional now being offered as a preassembled layout in mate tweak), I am quite convinced, would not have occurred in the absence of those "complaints".

I will keep posting replies such as this so long as I keep seeing posts based on, variously, ignorance of events, obfuscation, dissembling and downright dishonest recounting of events being posted here.

The things that will stop me making these replies are:

Martin comes on here and acknowledges the mistakes made in implementing this. In doing so, it will hopefully cause those who wish to show how "on-side" with the devs they are that their posts are, in this instance, entirely misplaced.

Or

Those same people taking the time to actually look back at both the posts in the initial consultation/poll and the immediate thread on the changes that this thread is basically a continuation of and, in doing so, stop with this disingenuous re framing of the events that led to this point.

Or

I get banned form this forum

If neither of the first two happen, this is going to be a long thread (or I get banned). If either of them do, this will be my last post in it.

102

I understand your opinion about the poll. Just my opinion but that poll probably shouldn't have been done. On the other hand had the changes just been implemented there more than likely would have been the same amount of flack.

I think that the better way of handling it would have been for the Devs to make the changes and simply post what the changes would be along with the fact that the previous theme options for look and feel were still there it would simply require some settings changes.

At the end of the day no matter what happens there will always be someone not happy and griping about something. Like I stated earlier if someone is that disgruntled they can grab an iso of Arch and build there system from the core up and have just exactly what they want. That is until an update rolls out that disables a major system at a critical time and leaves them hanging. Which is why I came back. Arch rolled out a series of updates that effectively disable CUPS at a time I was needing to print some documents for a license. That prompted me to come back to a more stable environment, At this point that consist of Debian Testing, Ubuntu Mate, and Kali. At least things are functioning in this arena.

As far as supporting the Devs opinion and the direction they are taking, and what they are doing, I support them. They are eliminating a huge chunk of the headache that comes from doing ground up installs. Opinions are just that, and ultimately it is their decision as to what is best for the distribution.

As far as keeping a discourse going wanting someone to get online, say they are wrong, and apologize, well that seems a bit on the childish side of things. Except where things are, make the necessary adjustments to your system so you are happy with it. At this point in the ball game this has turned into nothing more than a gripe fest that isn't helping anything.

This will be my last comment on the subject as I believe this thread should be closed for further comments.

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103

I agree it should not have been done. And I did not say they should apologize. Merely acknowledge. There is a difference. I choose my words very carefully and you really should read the posts of others more carefully.

However, given that it was done, the honourable thing would have then been to come clean and say that a mistake had been made and the change was going to be implemented anyway and then the reason given, unvarnished.

It didn’t happen that way either.

At least not until much later.

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104

@stevecook172001 I’ve read enough of your post in the past to know you have the skills necessary to build your own operating system from the ground up. Have you considered doing so? Mate desktop is unadulterated on debian. I think you would like it.

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