Things that are wrong with the community


#1

I miss the days when Ubuntu Mate was a small project and the forum was a forum where you can find help. Now days the forum is a Drama telenovela. From the posts that doesn’t have anything to do with the project, to post that are misleading to bug reports on the forum. But all have a single thing in common, pure hate. I love free speech. I am all about it but when you don’t understand or don’t respect other options there’s something wrong with you. Yes YOU, the guy that Everytime you post about canonical and snaps and security and how Canonical is worse then Microsoft. Or you that post mate vs xfce or mate vs lxde etc and then you point and say never use mate because i like more xfce. Or the "i have a opinion about x but i don’t know the core things about it, a little exemple is with the 32 bit drop, a little portion of the users that post a comment there really knows the difference between 32 and 64, and the biggest problem is that instaled of learning the difference and that you need a minimal 64 version of the os because you have a 64 pc but with 1 or 2 GB RAM you waste everyone’s time. And the “hey Linux is free, soo be my @##@$” , you need to add to your vocabulary thank you, can i help somehow, i posted a bug. In this category can enter some YouTubers that never reported a problem but in every video they are crying that some things are broken for 2-3-4 years.


Things that are wrong with the community Follow up :)
#2

I think this is not a problem of size but a human issue.
After listening to the last Linux Unplugged episode (LUP 249) I unsubscribed to a couple of you-tube channels.
I’m tired of “home grown FUD”.

Regarding the forum, when a post enters an infinite loop (classic, new, classic,new,…), I mute it.


#3

I’m sorry, was this directed at me? If so, I don’t apologize. I remember the reasons I left Windows and I don’t thank you or anyone who tries to bring those things to Linux or Ubuntu specifically.

Security is a mindset. If we’re really going to have a new technology (Snaps) bolted on to Ubuntu it needs to be designed with security in mind or we all suffer.


#4

The post was addressed to all. You want a different mindset? Ok ! GIVE constructive feedback!!! Everyone can cry about everything but the ideea is to give a constructive feedback or stop crying because is pointless. Look at me. I have a broken pc and no way to buy a new one for testing, do you see me crying here on the forum? No, i switch my time doing other stuff like helping on the forum. But i can help only 10-20% because the other post’s are just soo negative and pointless that is giving me a headache and making me delete my account.


#5

I don’t know what is happening with Ubuntu Mate community, I am just using Mate because I love it. I moved from XFCE to it some around Ubuntu 15.x, after realizing some issues does not get fixed in XFCE.

Ubuntu Mate 16.04 was amazing and almost perfect desktop, almost no current issue, all was solved on the way. But I decided to upgrade to 18.04 because of that amazing HDPI switch, hoping to solve on my two 32bit laptop, the random colors of logout logo, and some other features like GTK code upgrade, with in my thinking means better.
Unfortunately 18.04 Mate have such big issue all around, that make me sign on this forum to point them out so some one see them and get some quick fix, at least on some of them.
I expect to have issues on new software, new features, but not existing ones, witch Mate 18.04 have a lot of issues non existent on current 16.04, I somehow expect to have some update on Desktop side after initial release with some fixing, but nothing… I just upgrade to a car with front door windows smaller than rear one (icon sizes) with missing dashboard indicators, and replacing them I get default cut-ed ones, buttons on dashboard have different sizes (control center icons), and poor gasoline for my old car (desktop content acceleration slower on 32bit system on T42 laptops)

Tomorrow or next week I plan a test switch to KDE, if things will go Ok for one-two weeks, at least all my main desktop systems will get the switch, and probably I will never look back on Mate for those ones., even I just hope that all Linux desktops get to the place where they should be, and I start here with my current favorite one, with Mate, continue with XFCE, and also same hope for a cleaning on PLASMA.
Even I know that I am switching to something more bloated that what I need, at least it does not look to have above mentioned issues.

When is hate, is on the other side Love, you can hate only something that really matters to you. You show that you demand and have better expectation, and I really hate what has happen with mate 18.04, from my User point of view is worser than before, but is hope. All this issuer are bigger from a user perspective but on code perspective are just some tweaks, and this missing tweaks for me show low code quality. So maybe the team should rework the code, so this kind of issues will not happen in the feature.


#6

So… the entire MATE (talking upstream here) is 7 volunteer developers, only 3-4 of which are active at any given time. The Ubuntu MATE team is really just Martin, with maybe a handful other developers contributing on the side. All this happens in our spare time, mostly for free (the project does get some donations from the community).

I have a day job, a wife, and 3 kids. That “low code quality” probably happens at 6am, which is when I have time to work on fixing bugs before I need to switch gears and start making breakfast. I truly love doing this, but I would prefer to be able to say “you’re welcome” rather than “I’m sorry”.

Rant aside, if you can program, translate, file bugs, or resolve technical issues, this project could gladly use your help! It is extremely rewarding to work on MATE, and perhaps with more developers we can work on those code quality issues :wink:


#7

You are comparing 16.04 with two years of bug fixing against 18.04 that is only one month old (at least for the main public).
Ubuntu always suggests upgrading from an LTS to another LTS when the bigger issues are solved and the first point version is released (18.04.1).
I have experienced several issues and reported a couple of bugs and I know that some fixes are coming because I follow these bug reports but in general my experience with 18.04 has been very positive.


#8

I for one am very grateful the “low code quality” that probably happens at 6am. I benefit from and use it every day. Thank you very much @vkareh, @Wimpy, and anyone else that is contributing to and supporting this project.

As a long time Linux user I have come to realize that everything does not always work as expected, and that sometimes things need to be fixed, and sometimes it takes effort on my part to find a workaround to solve a issue, until a bug fix is released. But is that not part of the appeal of using Linux? It certainly is for me, and it causes me to know more about the operating system that I’m using.

If that kind of scenario is not appealing to someone, and they prefer a operating system where everything works without any intervention or knowledge from the end user, then Linux is probably not the best fit for them.

Linux is not Windows. Linux is not OS X. It never has been, and it never will be. Hopefully. :wink:

Ubuntu Mate is a very stable distribution in my experience. But I’m using 16.04.4, which is the 4th release of 16.04, and most of the bugs have been worked through. Not all, but most.

I understand the appeal of 18.04, especially with the HDPI support. But if one can manage to wait, 18.04.2 will be more stable.


#9

Exactly, well stated @gabdub .


#10

I don’t know the other guy who talked about “low code quality” and I don’t agree with that assessment at all.

Ubuntu-mate as a distro is to me its own thing, and when I personally refer to Ubuntu you can usually be assured I’m talking about the parent distro and Shuttleworth. Furthermore I understand that there are certain things that Ubuntu-mate is required to do or have in order to be an official flavor. I’m not sure if having Snap compatibility is one of those things or not.

In any case if I talk about Snaps being a bad idea or implementation I’m speaking of the parent distro there. I’m not talking about the hard work being done by the people here running Ubuntu-mate. I’m not talking about Ubuntu-mate at all. I consider it a mandate handed down from above with unfortunate consequences. I don’t blame the Ubuntu-mate coders for the poor choices made by those upstream.

I thank everyone involved in the distro for bringing us Ubuntu-mate. That doesn’t mean I don’t disagree on some of the choices made by those people. It is possible to disagree and still be thankful and to be respectful.


#11

It’s not right to throw fault on other’s people
Ubuntu Mate is community based.
If you have overall issues with 18.04. Go blame Cannonical
We all know Gnome3 is horrible at the moment.
BUT luckly , there are some cool guys ( like the one from MATE project) that still supports Gnome2 and adds more features for example the software boutique.
also whoever said"low code quality" can you even code ?
send us your github :smiley:


#12

I’d like to start off by saying thank you to all who spend there time developing Mate.I’ve been using Linux since Red Hat and Mandrake were just getting started which was when you walked by a Windows computer and had to reboot it.It seems alot today want to install a system and everything just work.I’m still looking for that system.Usually if I have a problem it’s something i did or forgot to do as in installing something I know won’t work but i do it any way like the wrong graphic driver then get a blank screen.As far as bugs any new system just released is going to have it’s share of things that don’t work right.I started using 18.04 in vbox with the daily builds and will start with 18.10 soon and very rarely is there a problem that isn’t fixed within a few days.As far as complaining I guess some just can’t be happy with what they have as in a free system that people worked very hard to develop.Thats my rant for the day and again I’d like to say thanks to all who develop and try and help in the forums.


#13

Ok Let’s “bisect” things a little bit :smiley:

First I am a Linux user and my profession is as an engineer in other field …

I observe there is a “misunderstanding” between user and developer word, regarding how things should be.

  • for me, as a user, an LTS mean a stable version of Linux so I expect no big user issue when an LTS is released
  • but for developer an LTS is same thing like another release of linux so it can have bugs because they treat it as a new development release they can work on it, so they don’t think from user perspective just another further development they work on.

Me as an user that benefit form other people work, I should not complain, even I should say bigggg thank you, and I am really saying biggg thank you for this amazing desktop. And here I am not talking about Ubuntu I am talking exclusively about MATE Desktop, not even Ubuntu MATE.
I test today KDE desktop through KDE Neon and I can say couple of words.

  • Ubuntu Mate continue to be my love, the design the colors everything is so intense, is alive, KDE has nice design nice animations but somehow is fade, is colder, even with such build quality something it keeping me for taking it, If I left Mate I remain with my hart broken.
  • From Quality point of view KDE Plasma is superior, everything works as it should be, the only issue that I spot it is 3 black and white icons (a miss-configuration in default settings view - but there are another two views where it can be hidden this issue) but others like panel bars work impeccably and are nice to configure,… Also there is another thing that I don’t like, is the similarity with XFCE, that bulky looking of some elements like window title bars,… witch does not scale as good as MATE and remain really bulky, witch also gives a feeling that extra work need to be done.

I realize that this desktop might be in luck of contributors, for such amazing desktop only 3-4 active developers, where is that big Linux developer word, why they are not contributing to this Amazing Desktop, along other software where they are working, why Canonical does not bring a little help, is just some questions that I ask myself.

I will be glad to contribute to this MATE coding, but except doing some configs based on some internet search I am not able to do more, because I am just a simple user, not a software developer. Regarding desktop translation for my point of view is quite a time waste, I have never installed a software in my language, and never intended to do, probably because used to use software in English and it look wired to me to have “wired” words in software menu. On the other side I also have a lot of other personal projects that need to be done, even using this form from one week is not in my plan, but on the other side I enjoy the conversation, even I try to be a little bit rude, just to push “developers” to do good staffs.

I enjoy Linux, it really take a a lot of time to to learn to configure software, make install and configuration scripts, but there is one thing that I don’t like on linux is solving bugs, as Linux world is so split and not really understanding all linux background, not really know even where to search for a fix, or fill a bug for for the fix. I was not really interested in Linux OS background just apps background, probably this is why others does not contribute too much on Desktop software’s like MATE ones, and I even think that desktop on Linux is a little bit messy all over: Xorg, different compositors, Mesa, OpenGL, DRI, Nvidia driver limitation imposed by Nvidia ,… some alien words, that ask myself why I don’t return to Windows as par example on Windows I can even take Linux apps like latest Gimp V2.10 from portableapps.com witch on Linux is on v2.08, and on Linux video acceleration is almost half probably along all system, is like I have a poor video card on all systems. I think linux on desktop side can really became a contender to windows, and I think it just need couple of 2-3 year of development so things goes as it should be an all desktops environments.

But you know Is just a discussions, for now I will continue to use MATE, and be patient with the fixes, and on my 32bit system probably I will downgrade (reinstall) 16.04.


#14

It’s a new and different operating system. The design philosophy is a bit different than that of Windows (not that Windows is really Windows these days either–compare and contrast say Win3.x with Win98SE and both of those with Windows 2000 and Windows XP and Windows 7) for an enduser this manifests as a “feel” for how the desktop behaves when we use it. You can’t go into using a Linux distribution expecting it to behave or feel like Windows anymore than you can install OSX or say Haiku (formerly OpenBeOS) and expect it to perform or feel the same.

To use an expression to illustrate what I mean consider: If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

The layers in Linux aren’t there to frustrate you, they’re all a part of the *NIX design philosophy of components that do one function only and do the best possible at that one job. So we get multiple components that compete to do that function and sometimes people advocate this framework over that framework in competition and they both have those who like the one or the other but they can interoperate on Linux. Some of this also comes out of competition between hardware manufacturers who don’t interoperate or are unwilling to open source their drivers or give out the specs so drivers can be written which fully support the hardware.

You get this on Windows too, it just gets hidden because it’s not an open system and you don’t know it’s happening. You have manufacturer drivers, Microsoft certified compatible drivers, you have DirectX, OpenGL, and other frameworks. The difference isn’t that Microsoft codes better than the community–it’s that since hardware comes with Windows by default it can be relied on to be compatible. You could get this same level of compatibility for Linux, but you need to build towards Linux compatibility.

I remember my Windows NT 4.0 box with its new at that time optical disc. It came with a thick booklet covering the hardware that was certified to be Windows NT 4.0 compatible. If you wanted good performance in Windows NT 4.0 you needed to buy this supported video card and that supported sound card or that hard drive controllers, etc. If you didn’t you couldn’t be assured that the system would even boot on that hardware.

With all due respect intended we’ve become spoiled over the years with how good Linux hardware support actually is. We can simply install it and it works. That was never the case in the past.

Hardware support is always going to be an issue that needs to be worked on. As far as I can see this version of Ubuntu has had some significant steps forward in that regard. To the point where Intel has removed their hardware script because current versions of Linux no longer need to have special workarounds to ensure the hardware works as intended.

Other than hardware support and some applications being missing (more of which show up every day) and missing some games (more of which get added all the time–have you seen what you can get on Steam?!?) I really don’t see the issues that others seem to see with Ubuntu or Linux. Most of the issues I have are papercuts. Am I really the only one who feels this way?

I do have my issues about security and especially with regards to Snaps but I’ve been told that’s the next big push being made in Ubuntu. I hope this latest scare was enough to have the people in charge higher up take a step back and look at how things are run with that regard. Even then, it’s completely possible to remove Snaps at this point and never use them at all while we wait for that to happen.

I’m not seeing the end of the world here. I’m really not.


#15

I’ve performed the most “unspectacular” upgrade on my main PC running Ubuntu MATE 17.10 to Ubuntu MATE 18.04 on Friday evening. I’ve used the PC up to the moment the upgrade finished and I’ve been asked to “Reboot Now”.

After restarting I continued where I left off. As if nothing did happen :slight_smile: , except for having a new version of the OS, new versions of programs. And this is the way it should work!

No issue with the “Redmond” layout after the upgrade, it’s there as it was before showing all my (start) program icons on the left side, “system tray” (notification area) on the right side.

See the specs of my main PC: Share your System Specs -- Super List

Why on earth would someone talk about these things in this thread ? Please keep on reading, you will get the point…

All my PCs are “amd64” with 16 GB of RAM, Intel Core i5 (2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th generation), one has an nVidia GTX750 Ti graphic card, WLAN and SSDs.

For the other 2 PCs running Ubuntu MATE (18.04 now) I’ve performed a fresh install of Ubuntu MATE 18.04. I use them as test PCs, PCs running “lower priority tasks”, PCs to “grab and use” when the main PC is busy doing some “heavy duty tasks” (Eclipse, compiling, Jenkins releases / tests, Handbrake conversions from ts to mp4, etc.).

On none of the 3 PCs did I encounter an issue by now, running Ubuntu MATE 18.04 (after fixing my “Hibernate / Resume from hibernation” issue - see Hibernate / Resume from hibernation - Ubuntu (MATE) 18.04).

Everything is working as usual and expected.

Well, I admit, not using Ubuntu MATE on my notebooks. Not that I do not want to use it. No, but I have some programs that are not available for Linux (e.g. DVB Viewer for watching DVB-T2 free-to-air TV, TS Doctor for cutting recorded TV shows and I admit, I play Microsoft Solitaire Collection, etc.). And because there was no way to make “Hibernate / Resume from hibernate” working on these notebooks using Linux by now (I’ve tried other non-Debian / non-Ubuntu distros on the notebooks – it did not work). But, as usual, I will give it a try with Ubuntu MATE 18.04.

I may be a very lucky person taking into account the posts here spotting out issues or complaining. But am I really such a “special / lucky” case? Do you really think so?

I do not believe this is the case!

Besides, Ubuntu (any flavor) 16.04 was a total disaster on all my PCs / notebooks (program crashes all the time - SIGSEGV issues). Was very happy when Ubuntu MATE 16.10 was made available and had no major issue since October, 2016.

For all the encountered issues I’ve created bug reports (with different accounts in the past, but with my account since testing Ubuntu 18.04) on Launchpad and submitted apport issue reports. As a web frontend developer I know exactly how important user feeback is required in the process of fixing the issues.

As with any piece of software:

  • it may contain bugs
  • any bug may cause more or less or no trouble at all- YES, this is true - depends on the way you use the software, the hardware, the software that is installed on your PC, if you’ve upgraded or not the OS, the software, etc.
  • bugs are not build-in by developers - there may be some special cases that may have not been taken into account when coding, there may be an undiscovered typo somewhere, there may be a flaw in the algorithm implemented, there may be some incompatibilities with new or old hardware / software, there may be a lot of other things that may cause an issue
  • bugs are to be reported with additional (debugging) information - they will be taken very seriously by the developers and will be hopefully fixed as soon as possible
  • missing or changed features - most of the time interpreted as “bugs” - it may be possible that the feature you miss or was changed has been considered by others using “their voice” / “involvement” as useless / not important or they proposed a change in the way the feature should work
  • not a single developer likes to hear that his / her software is buggy! We’re not doing this on purpose to just annoy our users. We’re just humans and errors happen… we’re not living in an ideal world and even automated tests cannot detect all the issues - BUT, with your help, we can fix the bugs – therefor, provide feedback, describe the issue, provide hardware / software information, and we’re going to have a look, work on it and if possible we’ll provide the fix as soon as possible; it may be that the fix will come at a later time, due to the fact that it is possible that the fix affects lot of other software, there may be other involved that have to be informed and the need to change other affected software, etc.
  • you have to be patient; software bugs / new features are evaluated and depending on their effect they will get different priorities; if a bug affects only a few users / special cases / old hardware / specific hardware / hardware not supported anymore or if the new feature is not requested by many users they may receive low priorities (Trivial / Minor) - e.g. my case with “Hibernate / Resume from hibernation” - it looks like only a few users are affected by this issue - most of the users shut down their PC or simply suspend their notebooks
  • do not try “adventures” even if you’ve read on the Internet about how “cool” it is do to the one or the other thing – e.g. install an OS on a USB stick or even more add another OS to an USB install – it may be possible, it may work perfectly but it may also be a disaster and harm your own data! Even if it’s possible we do not have to test to the maximum extend and complain afterwards. You may do this in a “safe” (testing) environment and make sure you report the issues and the way to reproduce them
  • when installing a new OS / software program, refrain from immediately installing tweaks or themes or make changes that were not intended / not tested by the developers; try to use the software as it was intended; if you encounter issues, report them! You have a lot of time afterwards to tweak your system, step-by-step, making sure you have a backup before starting tweaking and you write down what you’ve done – just to make sure you can revert a faulty / buggy tweak / operation and to be able to report the issue to the involved developers – otherwise none will get a clue on what happened on your PC and what the issues with conflicting software / hardware are, etc.
  • if you simply shout out loud or offend people, you will go nowhere – your voice will be heard but it may be possible that people will want to ignore your message; try to keep calm, go for a walk, sleep on it, re-assess your issue and the impact it has on you then post your issue with all the possible details – it will help the developers in fixing the issue and finally you receiving the result with the fixed issue

And as a final thought…
Software / hardware is considered nowadays as something that has to work out-of-the-box. Everybody considers it as “given” and I think this is somehow wrong. Taking also into account the speed everything changes / evolves.

We have a lot of standards to comply with, a lot of “best practices” and a lot of hardware / software. It is enough to say that if your device (hardware & software) uses both standard / hardware / software A AND standard / hardware software Z, but A and Z are just 99.99% compatible, one may encounter issues / bugs at any time.

First, I did not want to join the discussion even if I read every single post here. BUT… I think a clarification about bugs / what to do if you encounter bugs is required.

It’s nothing wrong with the community from my point of view.

This forum reflects nothing else than real life:

  • users that are happy
  • angry users
  • “adventurous” users trying to “live” to the maximum extend
  • “loud shouting” users expressing their anger
  • users that are willing to help
  • others that are not willing to give a dime on the efforts done by others
  • users that try to ride their ancient car like a Porsche and wondering about the fabulous crash
  • users understanding more or less that security never did and does not exist by default – you have to actively involve in keeping yourself on the safe side without expecting “miracles” -
  • users that “blindly” trust others without even knowing them or evaluating the risk the “blind trust” may be
  • etc.

We all have to cope somehow and try to “live” together.

Let’s start thinking, contributing in any way possible and try to make Ubuntu MATE the OS and Desktop Environment we want to have installed on our PCs.

Simply, because we love it!

I think it is definitely worth a try :slight_smile:


#16

I was for 2-3 years on the second place on launchpad behind Martin for contributing with bug reports (with over 600-700 points), i made over 80 bug reports when Mate switch from GTK2 to GTK 3.
Now i am happy that there are users that makes bug reports in one way or another on launchpad. but for the last 2 weeks I’ve been trying to help users on the forum. If you browse the forum you will see long post’s with ubuntu mate it’s broken and so on and only one or two answers for posts needing help. The problem is soo deep that sadly i don’t think that i or we understand how things work will change something but we need to try.
In one way or another users need to understand that by crying etc on the forum nothing good will come. We need to educate the users in how they can help or why it’s not good to have a forum full of Drama. We are a small QA team (tester’s) that test the OS from the first Alpha release to the final and released OS , we can’t find all the problems because we don’t have all the hardware available on the market. We all have one or 2 PC’s (desktops and laptops) . Not all the Testers have much spare time to test every package that was updated that day etc. When my pc was working i did the tests specific to my rig like ultrawide monitor, amd processor and rx 460 video card. That’s why users need to play with a beta release and give us a heads up on launchpad for the problems they found to have a rock solid stable release or they can donate some hardware like video cards etc.
Personally my pc broke in the middle of beta 2 stage and for the last stretch i went to friends and use their pc to test the final iso’s that was over 8 fresh installation’s of the os. Why? Because i feel like Ubuntu Mate team is like my family and i can’t disappoint them and leave them at the end.
I made this post because i know the hard work of the team and all i see here on this forum is that this release it’s broken, bad code etc. It’s making me cry inside.


#17

I think sometimes users come to the forum in a state of high frustration, and they give vent as if they are paying customers. I may have been guilty of this myself. I am using Linux as the main desktop again after a pretty long time, so I am still catching up with the state of the scene.

I want basic stuff like Cron and Samba to work unfailingly. Compiz is not critical. Wineasio is critical for me. I went to file bug reports, but it requires me to create yet another account. I postponed it. I may get around to it, or I may not. I am too busy right now, but if 18.04.1 does not fix my problems I’ll switch back to 16.04, or just return to Windows 7.


#18

Let me just throw some ideas in here, so everyone can have a clearer picture of reality:

For the ones in the red corner:

  • new users and users in general seek help. More than 99% of computer users are not computer experts and do not have computer degrees (I know, shocking, right?);

  • if the problem is supposed to be the users that need to be educated, no doubt whatsoever that the problem is elsewhere and not there;

  • if users do not find help they will quit, badmouth and move on. And no community is built because no one will stick around for learning and passing knowledge to others.

For the ones in the blue corner:

  • an operating system is something that we use the best way we can and according to the operating system’s capabilities: an operating system is not the Holy Grail that will save our lives or change our lives so happiness can finally come along. An operating system is a tool and not the second coming of Jesus;

  • everyone should be thankful for what he or she is given.

And for all:

  • no one should think even for a second that the problem always relies on others beside themselves: if one blames everybody, usually he is part of the problem;

  • a forum about an operating system is not the place to relieve life frustrations.

No one is perfect. No one is immaculate.
Every operating system has flaws and it’s frustrating not to get the proper help sometimes, nevertheless Ubuntu MATE for me is the best operating system at the moment. And I’ve tried more than a hundred. Literally.
I am very thankful to everyone involved in/with Ubuntu MATE, directly or indirectly.


#19

Hallo everyone

I’d just like to pick up on the “hardware” aspect.

When people as me what kind of a computer they need to run GNU/Linux, I reply one that was built to run GNU/Linux. I go on to say that if they cannot (usually for reasons of cost) obtain a machine like that, they can try a machine made to run windoze, or even a fruity machine; but they are warned that it is completely unreasonable to expect a machine that was built with components optimised for one use-case to fit perfectly into an other use-case. When explained this way they get the point, every time.

The level of frustration is further elevated by the fact that so many people want to use a portable computer, whose components have to be carefully chosen and matched to try to get the target OS to run well on it afterwards anyway. We rapidly arrive at a certain number of people who find “it doesn’t work” { perfectly }, having had the expectation that it would.

GNU/Linux will make its breakthrough on the desktop/notebook market when ordinary consumers can buy made-for-Linux, pre-installed-with-Linux machines in the same shops that sell windoze and fruity machines. Until then we need to help all of the frustrated individuals we can, as much as we can. Some we may be able to help, others will choose to do something else.

The first computer I ever used had no monitor - it had a fanfold-fed dot-matrix printer attached to it. We sometimes forget “how good we have it now”. :steam_locomotive: --> :rocket:

I wish you all an altruistic day, and thank all those who have, and do, make any form of constructive contribution . :slight_smile:


#20

I appreciate this discussion, as it is about an omnipresent problem, that does not only apply to MATE, Ubuntu or Linux. It is rather a problem of perspectives.

I don’t like comparisions with Windows. On Windows there are many bugs as well - but they are hidden from the user to prevent one to find out what exactly has happened. Additionally, Windows restricts it’s functionality - no feature, no possible bugs for this feature.

In my eyes, part of the problem about perspectives e. g. is a user, that takes problems personally: favorite feature stopped working -> whole sense of the system (in the user perspective) stopped working correctly -> system is broken -> why did they released a broken system (on me)?

This thread gives an excellent example for different user perspectives as s. o. wrote above, that one of the basic features is Samba and that he don’t care about Compiz. For me, this is exactly the opposite: I don’t need Samba, but the beautification and efficiency features of Compiz are of major priority to me (most of my distribution switches were initiated by dropped compiz compatibility).

Another part of the problem about perspectives e. g. is a developer that commits all of his free times to work on (this) open source software (project). Every comment on any parts of this software (project) - whether he was directly involved in this part or not - is taken as a personal offense.

Over the years I experienced both sides and for both of them I was surprised and shocked about the reaction(s) of the counterpart(s). For both sides I wondered the intense of reaction and was quite sure that I didn’t behaved like that in the respective situation … but to be honest I can not tell this objectively (cause I am the subject :smiley: ).

So, long story, but no helpful contribution to this topic … lets change this:
I advise developers that are too deeply affected by such offenses to restrict their activity to technical expert talks in the forums.
I advise users that are deeply affected by a system’s misbehaviour to separate the technical problems from emotional ones and to ask for help in the respective part of the forums, but not to blame for help… :wink:
Furthermore, I advise everyone to not blame users for their misbehaviour, just inform them about the ineffectiveness. In my opinion this is a really important part of managing public expressions of emotions, cause often the root of the weirdest and crudest reactions were based on previous troll shooting traumata that accumulated feelings of frustration and misunderstanding.

Ok, the last part sounds quite dramatic or exagerated, this wasn’t intended exactly like that (while being a good example that the written counterpart isn’t always 1:1 what we are wanting to say :wink: ). But I am sure, you got the point.