Would Ubuntu MATE consider dropping unnecessary software?

Thoughts & Feedback
#1

Can we not get rid of Welcome, mate-tweak and everything else that is unnecessary?

That might seem controversial, so I’ll explain. I’ve been looking at new computers (windows 10), reading/watching the various reviews, and there is a universal dislike for software that the pc/laptop maker puts on. All these things are supposed to make life easier for the user, but they don’t. People prefer/want the standard windows experience.

I’ve said this before recently, but I feel Ubuntu-mate should be just made up of core mate applications, web browser and other essentials.

The welcome application is just an annoyance, and does nothing that good online documentation could achieve. Mate-tweak should be an optional install. The clue is in the name. I don’t use the HUD, global menu, so why should I have to track down everything that has been installed that I don’t want?

EDIT: just to avoid confusion, these posts have been spilt away from the thread Desktop Layout in Welcome?

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Desktop Layout in Welcome?
#2

I believe the reviews you have been reading refers to all the extra software that PC manufactures add to the standard Windows installation. It usually consist of things like face recognition software, back up and restore software, anti-virus and firewall software, manufacturer branded games, and anything else that the manufacturer has decided the end user will need for a "good computing experience’.

The amount of the additional software can be mind boggling at times, and it goes way beyond a simple welcome screen.

I feel the Welcome app should stay, as it is a great way to introduce some basic features of Ubuntu Mate to new users, especially to those who are new to Linux. Plus if it’s not desired to run at login, one only needs to uncheck the check box.

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#3

Yep that’s the stuff. I’m not just talking about the welcome screen on UM, I’m talking about things like tilda, synapse, etc - unnecessary stuff. How do I know they are unnecessary?.. because they’ve been removed from subsequent versions of UM, only to be replaced by other unnecessary stuff.

It’s much harder to remove packages and their dependencies from an installation than it is to manually install them.

Again I don’t want to focus on the welcome screen, and it is not my intention to upset anyone (nobody likes their work criticized), but it is the most in your face example of what is wrong with UM. Every time it loads I let out a swear word.

Lubuntu doesn’t have a welcome screen. Instead it has an extensive online wiki. This can easily be edited by anyone and gives a real community feel to lubuntu. Contrast this with Ubuntu-Mate. There is no online wiki. Instead, people have to request changes to the welcome screen. Users have to wait for these changes to be made by lah7, for which he receives a payment/“donation”. If UM implemented an online wiki, Holgerrpl could write his own section of the wiki, rather than starting this thread.

I understand the attraction of mate-tweak, but it should be installed manually by the user. It could have recommended package dependencies for plank, HUD, global menu etc so these don’t have to be on a standard UM install.

I know I’m probably going against the grain of most users on here, but since you voted for the most hideous wallpaper your judgement really can’t be trusted :wink:

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#4

Ouch. That’s cold man, I think the wallpaper we selected looks alright.

About the welcome screen, do you know how many people don’t know how to work within a Linux system? Do you know Windows still dominates the desktop market? Did you know that Microsoft Windows 95 had a similar welcome screen displaying useful tips and hints for doing stuff in that system? (Literally, that’s what the window always had on the top; “Did you know…” with an Edison incandescent bulb if you didn’t get the hint.)

ubuntu-mate-welcome isn’t that annoying. It’s actually rather handy for first-time users to anchor onto something rather than being lost at a terminal, because not everyone knows a Linux like you. I would rather a little bloat that helps users answer questions and find quick solutions to problems they may have, rather than people breaking their systems and complaining about it on the forum.

If you really want a system that doesn’t hand-hold you every so often, go with a Gentoo or Arch system which doesn’t do such things. Ubuntu was made from the ground-up to be a “Linux for human beings”, even if that isn’t Ubuntu’s motto anymore. It’s always been a “Baby’s first Linux” which can grow with children, and be as practical for mission-critical work with adults out of the box. Don’t like that? Tough :poop:

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#5

I wonder in which direction this discussion is going.
For me Ubuntu MATE should be not only a user friendly distro. It should be the most user friendly distro.
There are two ways to get a distro user friendly:

  1. Make a distro where is nothing to customize. Only one way for one action and make it easy to find for the user. That’s the gnome way.

  2. Make a feature rich distro and tell the user how it works. That’s for me the Ubuntu MATE way. Else you will get in the trouble like the KDE guys. They have a highly customizable DE, but also a talent for hiding the preferences for the single features where no one expect them.

In nearly every review I saw about Ubuntu MATE the mate welcome was praised as the new standard of welcome screens. And I think they are right.
When a new user don’t find a function he doesn’t say, “Oh, I’m too silly to find this function, I have to learn a lot, now.”. He will say, “This don’t work with linux.” and we are out of business. This is what we must prevent. The first hours with a new OS are the most significant hours for the user and the OS. Only when all things work like expected the new OS will get a chance to prevail.
And for me Ubuntu Mate is one the distros which could pass the first hours with a new user.
The welcome screen is a significant element for this. Especially the “First Steps” section.
For me the welcome screen is not negotiable.

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#6

Did any of those reviewers compare Ubuntu MATE Welcome with Manjaro Hello?

#7

Yes, there is review from Chris Were. He has used Manjaro as his daily driver for a time and switched now to Ubuntu MATE. I used Manjaro XFCE myself a few years ago. At this time it was not stable enough for me. It broke the whole system for several times after updates. But, as said, this was a few years ago. Here is Chris’ Vlog.

#8

Directions to install Ubuntu Mate core:

https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/ubuntu-mate-minimal-iso/14356

#9

Thanks. I already knew about the core meta package, and have done many an ISO install in the past. The core package for 16.04 depends on tilda, so even that brings in unnecessary packages.

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#10

I didn’t say anything about wanting to make things harder. What I want is to make things easier.

Too much choice confuses people and makes it look complicated. If you are at the position where you need a popup instruction to work your distro (as the opening post wanted EDIT: on the original thead Desktop Layout in Welcome? ), then I think you need to take a look at your overcomplicated distro.

The menus are cluttered with stuff. Get rid of it. There are endless and seemingly overlapping configuration menu entries. Get rid of what you can (mate-tweak).

Ubuntu-mate doesn’t have to imitate every os in the world. It should be comfortable and confident in its own skin. That is why I hate the new wallpaper. It clearly is a knock off of the mac os x wallpaper.

Welcome is essentially a browser based on webkit. UM already has a browser -Firefox. All that is needed is a link on the desktop or whatever to any online instructions. Simple.

I’m resigned to the fact that I won’t convince you, just like you won’t convince me that UM’s approach is better than lubuntu’s.

Choices, "Greeting software" and perspectives of a general user
#11

I am a newbie to Ubuntu and Linux generally speaking, the Welcome application is the one which made me love Ubuntu-MATE by helping me a LOT in the beginning, without the Welcome screen i might be to another distro or even worse, back to macOS…

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#12

Good idea and the button lovely fit the welcome screen as well as the icons in the button which give a good idea about what the button is for (both windows and mac users).

#13

I’m genuinely interested how it helped you and why you think it is better than an online wiki webpage (like lubuntu). As far as I’m aware (probably wrong on this) there is only one other Linux distro with a welcome screen. Macos doesn’t have a welcome screen (or at least it didn’t from what I remember) despite it being very different from windows (which most people are familiar with). So what advantage do other distros have over a welcome-less UM which would of made you use them instead?

With a decent package/snap manager then there really should be no need for a welcome screen.

#14

Please could I make it clear I work on Ubuntu MATE out of love, not any sort of financial incentive. Besides, if anyone wants to see something change or suggest an improvement, they are welcome to start a discussion here, or make a pull request.

I see this too. The Welcome and Software Boutique is one of Ubuntu MATE’s highlights. It could be described as a “Virtual Martin”, as @wimpy described in a podcast once that it was originally designed in mind for helping his not very tech savvy family relatives.

It is essentially a “web browser” under the hood, but there are some advantages as well:

  • Users who are offline or without an internet connection can still get started.
  • It integrates with Apt and the system so you actually start software (e.g. MATE Tweak) and do things. You simply can’t do this through a website.
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#15

Get started with what? Pretty much everything needs an internet connection. You needed one to download the ISO. If you’ve written over your only internet access and then found UM internet doesn’t work, then you are an idiot (they exist, I’ve spoken to them on ubuntuforums…via an internet access they supposedly don’t have).

It’s swings and roundabouts, an online wiki can always be kept up to date.

There is apturl and if you really must launch an app https://askubuntu.com/questions/330937/is-it-possible-to-open-an-ubuntu-app-from-html - not that I’m saying that it is needed or a good idea.

If you need this then you are basically saying the UM menus are hard to navigate. Why not fix that?

#16

Except UM does neither of these things currently. It certainly doesn’t do 2 “tell the user how it works”. The point of mate-tweak etc is to hide how the system is really configured.

#17

When I got into Ubuntu MATE I had just came out of a long hiatus from Linux. That Welcome Screen was a savior, especially because I messed up somehow and was having trouble with my package database, which the welcome screen helped me fix. Today you or I may not even look at it and just disable its “start every time” feature. But I’ll be damned if I don’t immediately recognize its importance.

It shouldn’t matter, who does it or how many do it. What I can tell you is that no one ever did a correct Welcome Screen until Ubuntu MATE. Welcome screens used to be common on Linux. Maybe you just don’t remember anymore, but they were a common feature back on the 90s and early 00s. Almost every distro had one. It was exactly because they were badly made that they fell into disuse. It’s a bit like the FAQ you see on every website. There’s never been in computer history such a misused term as Frequently Asked Question. There was a time they were good, way back in the BBS days and the early WWW days. Bout oh boy did they evolved into pure nonsense. Nobody cares for FAQs these days, due to how lame they usually are. But that doesn’t mean that someone can’t make them right. And Ubuntu MATE did the Welcome Screen right.

And how do you expect to walk a newcomer to Linux through Synaptic or, worse, apt-get? Tools like this exist and become useful after a certain number of hours have been spent using a distro. In the interim, a new user will welcome options such the Welcome Screen and the Boutique. And this is fact! Can be proven with the constant flux of positive user feedback that both applications consistently have on this forum. You seem like a new user to Ubuntu MATE and an experienced Linux user. So it’s conceivable you may look at both apps as useless to your needs. Just don’t confuse your needs with the needs of everyone else. You will lose. Badly. Because you have no idea how much positive feedback both tools have been having from our users. Heck, Boutique in particular even from the seasoned user crowd like myself who still use it to this day! I’ll use Boutique every time, because I trust it to be maintained for me and spare me the work of having to maintain my own repos/ppas for those applications on the boutique. In fact the Boutique is yet another case of someone finally doing a Software Center the right way!

And you also have to consider that a wiki as you say.
It takes a whole lot of effort to write and maintain. Something that is not at the reach of a distribution like Ubuntu MATE that doesn’t share the same number of active users like Ubuntu or Arch. A wiki on the case of Ubuntu MATE would be more detrimental give the high probability of it contained poorly written content (as is the case of the poorly written Manjaro wiki). Neither can you expect new users to know what they are looking for. What good do you think a wiki will do to a user who can’t update Ubuntu MATE because his package database needs to be fixed? Don’t confuse Ubuntu MATE with Arch. This is a distro that also wants to include a different audience: those who lack experience on Linux.

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#18

I said decent. Synaptic? awful.

#19

Where is this decent app manager, may I ask?

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#20

I would expect UM to use the same as Ubuntu proper. So Ubuntu software/Gnome software centre. Whether these are decent, I have no idea since I haven’t used them. The screenshots show a list of recommended apps, which is surely fulfilling the same role as software boutique? If Ubuntu software could be improved, then improve it, rather than creating a new package manager in software boutique. Otherwise you are just adding to the problem of similar apps, doing similar things, only slightly differently, which is what software boutique was meant to overcome.